Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Ah okay. My experience and many others is that if you're trying to talk to people about this process who haven't done it or no interest in it, they won't understand. If it's someone who has other spiritual practices or beliefs, it seems to either frustrate them or really make them curious ;D. Are you talking to people about this process and feeling that you have to repeat yourself 5 times, or are you just talking about everyday conversation?

I'm curious, do you feel any sense of seeking still? Something that needs to be done, somewhere you aren't at yet? Could you write a little about seeking?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Ah okay. My experience and many others is that if you're trying to talk to people about this process who haven't done it or no interest in it, they won't understand. If it's someone who has other spiritual practices or beliefs, it seems to either frustrate them or really make them curious ;D. Are you talking to people about this process and feeling that you have to repeat yourself 5 times, or are you just talking about everyday conversation?

Yeah, I don’t really bother talking about the process unless someone is really open to it and asks about it. I was referring to ‘normal’ conversation, like I tried to order a wheat beer on a gig and I had to repeat it many times and the waitress just wouldn’t understand :) similar communication difficulties happen now a lot more often than they used to.

I'm curious, do you feel any sense of seeking still? Something that needs to be done, somewhere you aren't at yet? Could you write a little about seeking?

I don’t know what I would seek anymore. Seeking would mean getting something from the outside. Which I don’t think can happen anymore since opinions and teaching don’t really interest me anymore. If I could get something, that would be to not experience these very unpleasant sensations that seem to keep rising up. But where can I find that? Nowhere I think. Sensations come and go.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Yeah, I don’t really bother talking about the process unless someone is really open to it and asks about it. I was referring to ‘normal’ conversation, like I tried to order a wheat beer on a gig and I had to repeat it many times and the waitress just wouldn’t understand :) similar communication difficulties happen now a lot more often than they used to.

Oh I see! This doesn't sound that unusual to me. When you join the LU aftercare groups you can share and talk with people, and you may find many people have similar experiences.

I don’t know what I would seek anymore. Seeking would mean getting something from the outside. Which I don’t think can happen anymore since opinions and teaching don’t really interest me anymore. If I could get something, that would be to not experience these very unpleasant sensations that seem to keep rising up. But where can I find that? Nowhere I think. Sensations come and go.

What do you mean by something from "the outside"? Outside of yourself?

These unpleasant sensations that keep rising up, does it seem like they are happening to someone? Is there a "you" that owns them or wants to change them?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

What do you mean by something from "the outside"? Outside of yourself?

I was referring to other people, guru’s, experts, teachers or masters, that sort of thing.

These unpleasant sensations that keep rising up, does it seem like they are happening to someone? Is there a "you" that owns them or wants to change them?

Not really, they just happen, there’s no victim there. Just no desire to keep feeling them I guess.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

I see, thank you for clarifying this. It's understandable to not want to feel the unpleasant sensations!

Do you feel complete at this point? Let me know what you think.

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Do you feel complete at this point? Let me know what you think.

Yea man, no more questions. I think we’re done here. Thx!

[samba19]

So, what's next?

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

I apologize for the late reply, hope you had a good weekend though.

You had asked earlier about seeing through the idea that thought controls the lifting of the arm. Is there any doubt around this? If so, could you please try this exercise and let me know what you find?

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

If everything after this is clear, I'd like to ask the six questions again. No need to be exhaustive with your answers, you can simply just write the matter of how you see it now. Just like with the hand lifting up and down - it can be simple.

Big hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

on the boat playing some music again... will get back to this tomorrow if not before!

xxx
-s-

[samba19]

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I have no idea if it’s cotrolled at all or if there’s any decision made, no proof of those. It seems to happen ‘at will’, spontaneously, perhaps that’s the best word I can think of to describe it. Thoughts and action of the hand turning seem to be disconnected pretty much, thought doesn’t control action, not sure if it controls anything for that matter. A thought can claim that the “I” made it happen, or that the thought made it happen but these are just thoughts, nothing more. No chooser or controller to be found.

I don’t think there’s any change in my answers to the six questions and I’m not sure if anything is clear anymore. But no “I” can be found, no matter how I try, that seems to be a pretty solid case. In that sense I guess we have accomplished the goal of this guidance. The angels with trumpets aren’t showing up for the gig it seems…

xxx
Samu

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Thanks for your answers. I'm going to post it to the other guides again and i'll get back to you.

Sorry for the lack of angels with trumpets :D

Wesley

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

The suggestion from another guide is to continue this guiding until you are crystal clear about this. If you are okay to continue, I would like to start here:

and I’m not sure if anything is clear anymore

What isn't clear?

But no “I” can be found, no matter how I try

What is it that is looking for the I?

Is there an I to awaken?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

What isn't clear?

I guess we should debate on what ‘clear’ refers to but this all just turns into a neverending philosophical conversation. What I meant was that I don’t know anything anymore. The various things I’d like to explain can’t be explained so for me we’re done and ‘unclear’ is what I’m left with. And I guess that’s the way it should be. And no I can’t say what would be gained with the ‘knowledge’ of whatever. Probably nothing.

I don’t think we can be ‘crystal clear’ about anything. A ‘santa claus’ or an ‘I’ might be found some day, who the hell knows, right? But from what I’ve experienced, the things that I thought were “I” are not so in that sense we have finished what we started.

What is it that is looking for the I?

Is there an I to awaken?

I think we’ve agreed that there is no-one doing anything so this question is just repetition of what has been gone through already. No, “I” can’t awaken since there isn’t one. And what is looking for the “I” - it cannot be defined or experienced or whatever. “I” is being looked for.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Okay, I understand a little more what you mean by not clear.

What I meant was that I don’t know anything anymore. The various things I’d like to explain can’t be explained so for me we’re done and ‘unclear’ is what I’m left with.

Could you elaborate a little more on those various things?

I think we’ve agreed that there is no-one doing anything so this question is just repetition of what has been gone through already.

That there isn't a 'someone' somewhere controlling things, is this clear for you as you look right now? Is this coming from your experience, or is it only agreed upon?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Could you elaborate a little more on those various things?

What is the meaning of life? Why is my baby crying, what’s wrong with him? Why am I feeling anger when my spouse is giving me a hug? Why is there individual experiences? Why are thoughts seen by a single person and sometimes by two persons? The questions are endless, why do you care? I could go on for hours but since there are no answers - why bother?

That there isn't a 'someone' somewhere controlling things, is this clear for you as you look right now? Is this coming from your experience, or is it only agreed upon?

Only a thought says that things are being controlled by something. I can’t find anything for sure that would be controlling things so that’s experience saying that then, not only agreement.