Well, then. Shall we?

[Delma]

"It is here."

Let's look there. What is this 'It'? If you are sure there is something without qualities which can be put into words, is it just a feeling of a self? What is a feeling? Is a feeling a self? If so, wouldn't any feeling at all be a self and why would we say "I have a feeling?"

You can't be what you feel you possess, no?

We say,

I have thoughts.
I have feelings.
I have a body.
I have a mind.
I have sensations.
I have emotions.

Is there an I which possesses these things?

[Delma]

Please look in reality to find this I. Does it exist as anything real?

[susanlee]

'it' doesn't possess feelings, thoughts, body etc. 'it' is aware of feelings, thought, sensations, etc.

"Does it exist as anything real?" I can't say 'no' for certain. I can't say 'yes' for certain.

[Delma]

Please look. This is about checking reality just as you would check for a computer in front of you. Is there anything in reality which can be pointed to? Where is the "It"?

Does the self exist outside of thought? Does it exist in any real sense, any more than the notion of Santa?

[Delma]

Remember when you said that people are popping everywhere? They are examining THIS question with 100% honesty, deeply looking for the reality of what is found. Where, Susan, is the referent for the body and brain?

:)

I'm sensing a resistance or hesitancy? If so, bring up any fear or resistance now, please. Let's shed some light on it.

[Delma]

One more reminder of how to look...

look for the inherent phenomenon, the self that feels like it exists independently from its description.

[susanlee]

still looking....what could be the resistance or.... fear of what? when I make a list of possible fears, no answer is obvious or, on the other hand, perhaps every fear is there. just don't know. pendulum swinging again... back and forth....no fear....all fear....no fear....all fear.

"where is referent for body and brain?" here..

"look for inherent phenomenon....the self that feels like it exists independently from its description" no inherent phenomenon. no description. oh my...just realized the description could be 'isness'...

ok, the self that is independent of 'isness' ......nothing is independent of 'isness'.....
therefore self isn't independent of isness.... isness is a thought, belief or memory.

There seems to be a blind spot...can't get off this merry-go-round....can't seem to pinpoint the resistance or fear.

should I just keep dwelling on 'isness' until an answer is obvious?

love, susan

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

Sometimes when coming from a background of long-time seeking, there is the impression of what this should look like, of what will be discovered. And it's often described as a discovery that you are Awareness or Conciousness or Isness.

This is actually a grasping toward a greater/better/enlightened self. What I'm asking is that you check to see whether any of that is a possibility. Is it possible that you expect to find that you are one of those things?


So....Take a look. Is the Awareness, Consciousness or even Isness yours? Is there a you for it to belong to? Does it belong to anything or is it just there, existing?

As for fear, I would ask, what would it mean to find that there is no you, no you anywhere at all, not even an "Isness" that is a you, and there never has been a you. What is the feeling that comes up when looking at this question?

:)

[susanlee]

Thank you for the feedback. It is helpful....

The awareness, consciousness, or isness is not mine...it does not belong to anything....it is just there, existing.

there is no me, means no identity with 'susan', no identity with any thing or no identity with any place. It would be like lucid dreaming when suddenly it is realized 'this is a dream' and nothing in the dream is identified with. The feeling that comes when looking at this answer is relief....ahhhhhhhh.....relief.

perhaps i am looking for a particular experience like lucid dreaming. wanting relief. who is the 'i' looking for that experience?

it is conclusive there is no 'i' outside thought, belief or memory. and if an 'i' wakened from the dream that would still be just an experience, right?

is awakening from the dream different from liberation?

thanks for your insights.
love, susan

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

Relief is good and it's often what brings us to this seeking in the first place. Relief is also what's often felt when the realization that there is no you to be separate and small, just life all around, playing itself out perfectly. :)

I'm having a hard time, though, getting a read on where you are. I have done this for a while, and am very alert to possible traps and pitfalls. One of them is to agree with me due to not wanting to disappoint. Susan, please disappoint me. It will make all the difference between really crossing the gate and standing before it on shaky ground.

Question the hell out of this experience, question me. Doubt anything I say. But tell me this.... do you feel a shift with that relief, a recognition of the truth? Do you feel there is more to cover? I'll be happy to do this until you are solid and your questions are answered.

You're a tough one. ;) I believe I sense a holding back, though I've been known to be wrong.

Tell me about the ways in which it feels like lucid dreaming. Don't worry yet about it being an experience. Let's just take a look at the details. Describe how it feels so that I can understand.

Sound good?

[susanlee]

yes, sounds good? I also want cross the gate to be solid ground, not shaky ground and I also want to have no questions or doubts.

There is a recognition of no separate and small 'me' , just life playing - but only when paid attention to. Only when something asks 'is there a 'you'? Majority of the time, just life playing and not noticing whether a separate me is there or not. Shouldn't it be obvious at all times if awakened?

As far as I know, i have not said I agree with you, if I didn't agree. Do you have anything specific in mind, so I can re-check?

I will try to explain and see if this might be what you feel is the holding back.

Sometimes I can't tell the difference in what has been deduced with thinking and what is known experientially...they get so close together. sometimes it seems as I answer your questions, it is just thinking answering, not a real experience, but a deductive thinking, and then at the same moment, slip into a something that is indescribably not thinking, just experiencing.

This whole process has been filled with lots of those moments and it seems to be enough. I am filled with a trust that all is well. maybe its enough to have that trust....that is a great relief..

but.......if someone ask me 'am I liberated?' I don't know the answer to that. I would lean more toward answering 'no'

If I ask you 'Are you liberated?', would you say 'yes, definitely'?
and if I ask you 'If I keep looking at these questions honestly, will I be able to answer "Yes, i am liberated, definitely?'
if that is possible, then I want to keep going until, I can answer for sure 'yes, this is liberation.'

I think also, what was realized in my previous post, is that maybe I am looking for awakening from the dream, in the same way one does when lucid dreaming, And so have a preconceived idea of what that feels like. it feels like suddenly you know its a dream and any character that you identified with is not you and none of it is real. It can still be fascinating, because it is so creative and intricate and yet you know it is just a product of mind activity. That is what I am expecting to be the litmus test of awakening. You mentioned before that awaking just happens and we don't wake ourselves, and I definitely agree with that. Evidence is there every morning when waking.
so, maybe I just wait in this wonderful pool of trust for the waking to happen.

So what I am saying is that it is not yet like lucid dreaming, and I am expecting that is what it should be.

but is lucid dreaming like liberation?

I am happy to hear you would be happy to stick with it until all questions are answered. I also am willing to stick with it until all questions are answered.

I am reminded of when I was trying to help my husband see one of those magic eye books where you look at a picture of seemingly random shapes and colors and you squint and un-focus your eyes and suddenly a 3 diminutional picture pops out that is backlit with bright light and colors. No matter how many hints I gave and tried to help, he just never got it. Sometimes he thought he got it, and would ask 'if it was like such and such' but I could tell he hadn't got it because when you see it, there is no mistaking or wondering. its obvious. is liberation like that....is there no mistaking it?

again thanks for your patience and insight..... I take your words as words from god......but don't worry, I won't drink the coolaid.

love, susan

[Delma]

yes, sounds good? I also want cross the gate to be solid ground, not shaky ground and I also want to have no questions or doubts.

There is a recognition of no separate and small 'me' , just life playing - but only when paid attention to. Only when something asks 'is there a 'you'? Majority of the time, just life playing and not noticing whether a separate me is there or not. Shouldn't it be obvious at all times if awakened?

Wonderful. :) What we need to do now is to define what solid ground is. It can be different than imagined.

What we're doing is verifying. Checking. Testing reality. We're looking everywhere for a tangible self, the image the brain conjures up moment-to-moment. The question we're working with is: "Does this self exist inherently?" So then you look, and you look again. Each time the answer is the same. Eventually, after beating this up a bit, comes the realization that this is just a fact. That the self is a figment of imagination. And this is how it is unshakeable. No matter where 'you' are or what 'you're doing', this simple check reveals the same thing again and again. Eventually, the neural pathways in the brain, those which have been firing in the exact same way for years, relax to reflect reality. The belief becomes less and less prevalent.

So, the seeing when checking is instantaneous. The integration can take longer. That's why it seems to be there only when looked for right now. It's a noticing that's happening. But have you also noticed that it's not only a validation of truth in the present moment, but it's easy to see that this has always been this way. There has never once been a self at all.

Look right now in the field of vision and keep checking. Is there anything blocking the view or the seeing? Is there anything stopping or starting hearing? When putting a hand to the desk, is there anything blocking the sensate experience? These are the ways to check throughout the day.

As far as I know, i have not said I agree with you, if I didn't agree. Do you have anything specific in mind, so I can re-check?

Nope. Just checking. ;)

I will try to explain and see if this might be what you feel is the holding back.

Sometimes I can't tell the difference in what has been deduced with thinking and what is known experientially...they get so close together. sometimes it seems as I answer your questions, it is just thinking answering, not a real experience, but a deductive thinking, and then at the same moment, slip into a something that is indescribably not thinking, just experiencing.

This is perfect. The discernment makes all the difference. At first this seeing is intellectually based because we are working with words and concepts to 'unhook' a concept. So it's a bit tricky. My task is to get you to see through the self concept by prompting questions (thoughts). It's pretty naturally going to lead to your thinking about it first. But it's the constant checking (experience of reality) that this is actually about. Keep going there. Always go to direct experience.

This whole process has been filled with lots of those moments and it seems to be enough. I am filled with a trust that all is well. maybe its enough to have that trust....that is a great relief..

but.......if someone ask me 'am I liberated?' I don't know the answer to that. I would lean more toward answering 'no'

If I ask you 'Are you liberated?', would you say 'yes, definitely'?
and if I ask you 'If I keep looking at these questions honestly, will I be able to answer "Yes, i am liberated, definitely?'
if that is possible, then I want to keep going until, I can answer for sure 'yes, this is liberation.'

This depends upon the definition or notions of liberation. If you asked me, I'd say that I'm liberated, yes. But that's a paradox because there's no me. Let's just say that there is an unshakeable certainty here that there is no separate self, and that every time reality is checked, it's validated. And I'm checking right now.... Within view is a computer screen, a plant, some lemons on the desk, pictures, dust, and a couple of crumbs from breakfast. ;) But there is absolutely nothing blocking or impeding the view. There's nothing there BUT the view. It's deliciously empty of a demarcation or dividing line between the body and the objects. It's a very seamless view.

There is always more to see, however, as this is a Living realization. Each moment is fresh and so each brings the opportunity for a new 'selfing' thought to appear, and for a seeing through to happen (or a falling away of that thought). So liberation is ongoing even though the initial recognition is swift.

I think also, what was realized in my previous post, is that maybe I am looking for awakening from the dream, in the same way one does when lucid dreaming, And so have a preconceived idea of what that feels like. it feels like suddenly you know its a dream and any character that you identified with is not you and none of it is real. It can still be fascinating, because it is so creative and intricate and yet you know it is just a product of mind activity. That is what I am expecting to be the litmus test of awakening. You mentioned before that awaking just happens and we don't wake ourselves, and I definitely agree with that. Evidence is there every morning when waking.
so, maybe I just wait in this wonderful pool of trust for the waking to happen.

So what I am saying is that it is not yet like lucid dreaming, and I am expecting that is what it should be.

Isn't it already like that? Take a look. It's simply not noticed when the 'selfing' thoughts come up.

but is lucid dreaming like liberation?

Possibly. Play with that, but don't lean too heavily on it.

I am happy to hear you would be happy to stick with it until all questions are answered. I also am willing to stick with it until all questions are answered.

I am reminded of when I was trying to help my husband see one of those magic eye books where you look at a picture of seemingly random shapes and colors and you squint and un-focus your eyes and suddenly a 3 diminutional picture pops out that is backlit with bright light and colors. No matter how many hints I gave and tried to help, he just never got it. Sometimes he thought he got it, and would ask 'if it was like such and such' but I could tell he hadn't got it because when you see it, there is no mistaking or wondering. its obvious. is liberation like that....is there no mistaking it?

again thanks for your patience and insight..... I take your words as words from god......but don't worry, I won't drink the coolaid.

love, susan

I believe this inquiry is very much like the magic eye book scenario. Notice, though, that even after the 'magic' is seen the first time, it still takes a good look to see it again, right? It's just that now, you know how to do it. ;)

Please keep asking any questions which come up, but try to stay with direct experience. Use the 'checking' method throughout the day today/tomorrow and let me know how it works out.

Enjoy.
Valarie

[susanlee]

your post is very clarifying. thank you. un-noticed doubts are melting away.

your answer to 'are you liberated?' really struck home and makes perfect sense. the feeling was 'there is no answer to that', just for the reason you stated. no 'me' to be liberated. the question actually has no 'yes' or 'no' answer that is accurate. its a nonsense question. either answer is a lie. just has no answer....how wonderful....

and YES, it is OBVIOUS that there never has been a self. that was obvious, the moment of first noticing no self outside thought, memory or belief,... that was always the case, goes without saying, and YES that is kind of like sudden lucid dreaming, now that you mention it.

very good point about the magic eye. it still looks like nothing until the squint is used again. I was expecting to never squint again....but am happy to squint again and again. I think that is what is so much fun about these questions, the fun of discovering the new picture again and again with each squint.

One question: don't know exactly what you mean about something blocking perception....
perceptions is happening and nothing is blocking, what could possibly block? just want to double check.
I remember a previous exploration regarding whether a self is needed for perception and it is obvious that no self is needed, but don't remember any explorations about what could block perception....don't see how that is possible.

YES, will continue checking throughout today/tomorrow.....have been doing that every day since we started our posting and YES it is a joy.

thank you, thank you, thank you, love, susan

[Delma]

Oh, good question!

We take vision for granted. And we take the fact that there is no little 'self'... either an ephemeral one or a filtering one, modifying direct experience. That's precisely why it's so direct! :) Notice that the view is crystal clear and you might even say vivid. (Buddhism calls it luminous). It's all just right there, immediate. And if you look closely, there's no line saying objects are actually "outside" vs. a self which is "inside". The line or division simply does not exist.

Looking in this way is very open and fresh. Reality welcomes everything and the fact that there is nothing 'blocking' or in the way of clear seeing is more evidence that there is no controller.

Does that make sense? (It's yet another direct experience tool to play with.)

Have fun with it.

I do believe you are nearly ready for confirmation that no self is clear. What do you think?

[susanlee]

yes, to perception being clear and vivid and no line between self and perception as outside of self. Yes to very open and fresh. seems so simple, without so much evaluation.....like early childhood, when a rut in the dirt was beautiful and fascinating..... don't know about luminous....does that mean sparkly or shiny?

in a couple of your posts you mentioned that you sensed I was holding back and when I read that, I looked to see what it might be and I didn't have a clue what that could be, until this morning it became crystal clear when I read your earlier post. It suddenly seemed obvious that you were absolutely correct. I was holding back confirming what was so obviously revealed in all or the explorations your questions initiated, that 'no self' is clear. some weird last hoorah to be in denial of reality by believing the mind's hyper-doubting suggestions. (to an uber degree)

last horrah....thats a good one, we shall see if more last horrah's arise....mind is already hinting, this is so ordinary...maybe you shouldn't confirm so quickly, but lovely, sweet reality is gently over-riding lovely, sweet mind ...

you won the bet, self is lost, ....or perhaps you didn't win, since there was no self to lose in the first place.....however I concede defeat.

i plan to continue to squint and see the 3-D picture.....am excited to test reality......so bring it on... and we shall see...

am open to further guidance, since as you say this is ongoing....ever fresh

with love and gratitude, susan