Help needed please

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

I'm very sorry about your dog :(. Please take care of yourself. That's great that you are able to recognize that most of the suffering is from a sad story being told. This is not all that different than the heavy stories of "me".

There are some decisions such as what to cook for dinner that seem to be an active choice, with thoughts weighing up the pros and cons of different options and then deciding what to make

Does it seem with those active choices that there is an I, or more of a i-ness than with, say, the decision to pick the green shirt over the red one?

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Thanks Wesley,
Turns out the dog is probably fine, fascinating to see how much drama can be generated from googling symptoms and thinking the worst :)
When there are active choices a dialogue takes place in my head eg. 'Egg and beans for tea or omelette...there's loads of veg to use up perhaps I'll do a curry, but the kids moan about that, I'll do a veg omelette then..etc' this seems to be a discussion but as I'm writing this and looking back at what I've written it occurs to me that it's just a stream of thought, not a conversation. I'll look at this next time it happens
Big hug
Nina

[nerina]

Hi Wesley
Did you see my last post?
Hope all is well with you,
Nina x

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

I'm sorry, I didn't see this last post. My email notifications haven't been working and I didn't notice a notification on the home. Woops, I'll make sure to double check.

I'm glad to hear about your dog - the death or suffering of a dog seems to sometimes impact humans even more than other humans. Lovely things :)

So there's more of a dialogue going on with active choices. Does it seem that "I" is making the choice or decision?

Let's try another experiment. Place 2 saltshakers (or 2 similar objects) in front of you. Choose which one to pick up, then pick it up. How did it happen? Did you know before you picked one up, which one it would be? Did you know how long it would take to choose one? Play with this, do it a few times. Watch closely for an I that's making decisions.

If you do not find an I that is deciding, then what really happens?

If you are still unclear about this, you can try this as well. Take a piece of scrap paper, or an old envelope or something. Tear it into pieces. Throw it in the air, catch as many of them as you can.

Did you know which ones you would catch? Did you know how many you would catch? Did you choose what you would do?

Looking forward to your findings,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
no problem :)
Last week's dog incident showed me several things
1. the suffering came from the story, not what was actually happening (the dog has an irregular pupil but it's not causing her any distress. The mind had me convinced that it was a brain tumour!)
2. there was a great relief when it occurred to me that if there is no 'I' and stuff just happens, it wouldn't be 'my' responsibility to choose whether to have her put to sleep if it was serious.
3. the dog behaves very differently for other people; my dad took her into the vet's surgery as I suspected she would remain calmer with him as I was distressed. She behaved beautifully - when with me she lunges and snaps at people and this is obviously caused by my fear. I need to lose this ASAP.
Sorry to ramble on about the dog but I feel that she is with me for a reason (probably another fanciful mind story :-D )

So there's more of a dialogue going on with active choices. Does it seem that "I" is making the choice or decision?

It does seem that 'I' is making the decision if there's a mental discussion weighing up pros and cons of different options and then a decision is reached. Not so when doing something automatic like driving or washing up.

Place 2 saltshakers (or 2 similar objects) in front of you. Choose which one to pick up, then pick it up. How did it happen? Did you know before you picked one up, which one it would be? Did you know how long it would take to choose one? Play with this, do it a few times. Watch closely for an I that's making decisions.

When choosing, I opt for the one my eyes go to first. It seems as though though directs this... 'pick the left one, now the right, now both' and the body follows. When I relax or focus on something else the choosing becomes more random and there's no 'I' making the decision.

If you do not find an I that is deciding, then what really happens?

The body is just moving the objects around, but the mind tries to hijack this process - 'now move it clockwise, now put it down etc.' I notice that the body doesn't have to follow these instructions but it often complies anyway.

If you are still unclear about this, you can try this as well. Take a piece of scrap paper, or an old envelope or something. Tear it into pieces. Throw it in the air, catch as many of them as you can.
Did you know which ones you would catch? Did you know how many you would catch? Did you choose what you would do?

I have no idea which ones or how many I will catch, or even which hand will reach out. The hands are lead by the eyes to where it looks like there are more pieces. With the eyes shut the hands just reach straight out. There seems to be a choice of whether to try to catch them or not.
Thanks for helping,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

the suffering came from the story, not what was actually happening

This goes a long way. What's really happening vs what thought says is happening (thought stories).

there was a great relief when it occurred to me that if there is no 'I' and stuff just happens, it wouldn't be 'my' responsibility to choose whether to have her put to sleep if it was serious.

Yes exactly. I think we often assume that with no I or me, that responsibility goes or we just become careless or passive; That we just cease to take responsibility, to act, and so on. This isn't the case, it's just a matter of "who is the me that is responsible? Where is that me?"

I can understand your concern about your dog ;), I feel that with mine too. Aggressive dog trying to become alpha male with another male dog, ugh.

It does seem that 'I' is making the decision

Where is the I that's making it?

I notice that the body doesn't have to follow these instructions but it often complies anyway.

Interesting find here. So you have experienced when the thoughts say to do something, and the body doesn't? For instance, try laying down, allow yourself to get a little comfortable. Then think "get up". What happens?

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,

" It does seem that 'I' is making the decision"
Where is the I that's making it?

Had a realisation here, choices are made but that doesn't mean there's a chooser. For example cooking tea - the available ingredients are examined, analysis of what needs to be used soonest etc, all the while the head voice is chattering 'shall I cook this or that...' but it's not actually making decisions it's just commentating.

So you have experienced when the thoughts say to do something, and the body doesn't? For instance, try laying down, allow yourself to get a little comfortable. Then think "get up". What happens?

Yes I experience this often - right now I'm shivering a bit and the thought 'go and get a jumper' has been popping up every couple of minutes, but I'm still sat typing. Laying down and then thinking 'get up' often results in no action at all :-D thoughts then say 'well just another 10 minutes and then I'll get up'. Hmm is this thought trying to look like it's in control of the situation?
Hug,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Had a realisation here, choices are made but that doesn't mean there's a chooser. For example cooking tea - the available ingredients are examined, analysis of what needs to be used soonest etc, all the while the head voice is chattering 'shall I cook this or that...' but it's not actually making decisions it's just commentating.

That's great! So a voice talking is not a chooser? Thoughts of a chooser aren't a chooser?

Nina, does there need to be a "chooser" in order for choices to happen? Based on what you've seen, how does it really work?

How does it feel to be doing things without a chooser, or decider?

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
No, the voice talking is not a chooser, just a commentator; I seem to remember being around 5 or 6 and being frustrated that there wasn't a constant conversation happening in my head as 'that's what grown ups do', I suppose that was the start of the never ending thinking!

Nina, does there need to be a "chooser" in order for choices to happen? Based on what you've seen, how does it really work?

There doesn't need to be a chooser, choices are made depending on circumstances, eg. I'm more likely to go for a walk if it's not raining and I've just finished some work.

How does it feel to be doing things without a chooser, or decider?

When I try to think about it the mind goes blank and I feel slightly disorientated. Will carry on looking throughout the day and see what happens.
I'm going away to a festival tomorrow until Monday so will be offline between those times,
Thanks again for your help,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

I seem to remember being around 5 or 6 and being frustrated that there wasn't a constant conversation happening in my head as 'that's what grown ups do', I suppose that was the start of the never ending thinking!

How funny! I suppose so.

There doesn't need to be a chooser, choices are made depending on circumstances, eg. I'm more likely to go for a walk if it's not raining and I've just finished some work.

Let's say it's a rainy day. You know that you usually don't prefer to go on a walk on a rainy day, you prefer to go on sun. These are the circumstances and decisions are made from this you say. One day, you get an impulse and you stand up and go for a walk in the rain. What happens then? In your direct experience, without the interpretations of thoughts, what can be known about decisions and how they work?

Great have fun at the festival! Enjoy your weekend.

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
I'm back now - had fun for a couple of days and caught up with old friends before getting ill and coming home early and spending 2 days in bed, ugh!

Let's say it's a rainy day. You know that you usually don't prefer to go on a walk on a rainy day, you prefer to go on sun. These are the circumstances and decisions are made from this you say. One day, you get an impulse and you stand up and go for a walk in the rain. What happens then? In your direct experience, without the interpretations of thoughts, what can be known about decisions and how they work?

I don't know what happens with impulses, does the body just act before the mind thinks it's deciding? Decisions seem to just get made - the phone rang as I'm writing this and it was answered instantly without any thought or decision, but when it rang early this morning there was a decision not to answer it, which seemed like 'me' choosing. When I keep focused I can sometimes see actions happening before the decision thoughts start.
Hug,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Welcome back :). I just moved so I'm sorry but now I will have to delay. I will get back tomorrow evening :)

-Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
No problem, take as long as you need. Enjoy your new home,
Hug,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for your patience and wishes. I've just moved to Paris ;). Quite a change.

I don't know what happens with impulses, does the body just act before the mind thinks it's deciding? Decisions seem to just get made - the phone rang as I'm writing this and it was answered instantly without any thought or decision, but when it rang early this morning there was a decision not to answer it, which seemed like 'me' choosing. When I keep focused I can sometimes see actions happening before the decision thoughts start.

Decisions are made. They happen all the time, the decision not to answer it was clearly made. But is there a "decider"'? Was there a "chooser"? Or just thoughts and the body moving freely?

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
Paris - how exciting!

But is there a "decider"'? Was there a "chooser"? Or just thoughts and the body moving freely?

There is no decider. I was looking at this while lying in bed last night and when thinking stopped so did the sense of self, there was just a sort of blank. Now I'm up and about the narrator kicks back in and I lose focus. Thoughts come up talking as if they are a self, instructing 'me' to see that there is no self haha it feels like I'm going mad with the relentless mind chatter.
Hope you're settling into your new home ok,
Hug,
Nina