Living in enlightenment

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

How does a self manage to love certain experiences if it never existed?
Very true, the self must have already have existed.

In that case which self are we talking about? It's possible that you mean something else but we had been talking about the assumed 'separate self' which was imagined to 'exist' but which is not found. How could that imagined entity love?

There is a self existing as a group of thoughts, they are different from what I am, I am able to recognize them.

Ah. Ok. So when you say 'I am' in this context, you are talking about something other than the illusion of a separate self?

Separate self is where I choose to believe that I am separated from everything else

Really? In fact, does anyone choose to believe anything? Firstly, we saw that there is no self that could choose, then, that choosing its self happens but no choice-point can be found.

Please let me know f you feel we are talking at cross purposes? Language can sometimes be trick in these conversations and the word 'self', for example, can be used so as to mean different things.

love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Please let me know f you feel we are talking at cross purposes? Language can sometimes be trick in these conversations and the word 'self', for example, can be used so as to mean different things.

I am enjoying the conversation, words can be tricky as you point out haha.

In that case which self are we talking about? It's possible that you mean something else but we had been talking about the assumed 'separate self' which was imagined to 'exist' but which is not found. How could that imagined entity love?

I follow up to where we see the assumed separate self which is imagined to exist and yes it cannot love since it is imagined.

Ah. Ok. So when you say 'I am' in this context, you are talking about something other than the illusion of a separate self

Yes, and there's little explanation for that 'me'

Really? In fact, does anyone choose to believe anything? Firstly, we saw that there is no self that could choose, then, that choosing its self happens but no choice-point can be found.

Amazing, truly actions happen on their own, no choosing no control, yet there is still the thoughts which appear as 'I am doing this, I am not choosing to go'.

Recognition with recognition as its own recognizer

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thanks for the clarification.

Here are the rest of the questions:


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


love,

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thanks

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I am not sure what to say happened to make me see, but I can point out the great unsatisfaction with how I felt life was moving. I was drawn with eagerness to see the peace in life.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decision is making a choice against given options. Intention is wanting to do or have something. Free will is ability of the will to make its own decisions unhindered. Choice is ability to pick one option over another. Control is having the ability to influence a person, action or process.

What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Things seem to happen on their own and yet the perfection of the process implies a master control which is only seen in imagination. I am responsible for recognizing life as it is. There is no more involvement. When taking a cup of tea, I am able to recognize a body and its sensations, the cup, the tea and the surroundings; and I recognize the tea being drunk with all the sensations it brings to this body. Knowing that I am recognizing all this makes me aware that there is no recognizer to be found in this experience. I am and I am not.

Anything to add?

Nothing at the moment.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Decision is making a choice against given options. Intention is wanting to do or have something. Free will is ability of the will to make its own decisions unhindered. Choice is ability to pick one option over another. Control is having the ability to influence a person, action or process.

Well that is a perfect answer as to how these things are undestood conventionally. Your answer here implies a subject, 'me', that 'Intends', has 'free will', 'decides' and 'chooses' and 'controls'. How are any of these possible, how do they work without such a subject, or 'self'?

Please have a go at explaining how these things are seen , how they happen (or not) from the new understanding.

Thank you,

love,

Jon

[Eutychus]

Thanks Jon,

Please have a go at explaining how these things are seen , how they happen (or not) from the new understanding.

Decisions are assumed to be made but there is no time when the action can be seen to happen. Everything flows as is.For example I may decide to go for a walk, the decision to go for a walk is assumed to have occurred but there is no decision being made, everything is manifesting without a doer. the same may be said for choices as it is assumed but no action of choice is actually made. It all happens on its own. Intentions too are assumed to happen even so there is no me that initiates these intentions.

Without the self, control is assumed, it is only imagined and no doer of this action may be found.

.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thank you for your answer. It has been an exceptionally busy day for me. Apologies for ths but I'd prefer to write to you properly tomorrow, when I'm rested.

All the best.

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

It is well, I appreciate your commitment and efforts

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thanks for all your answers. I am now asking the other guides to take a look at our conversation. This is what we always do at this stage in our guidings. They may or may not have questions for you. I will let you know. Please check back here. It could take a day or two.


love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

I appreciate your guidance so far, you have helped me in many ways using the simple and profound words which have resounded deeply in me. Thank you for your help.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Really glad to help!

One of the guides has asked the following:

"To sit down, ask, feel, contemplate and answer in 8-10 lines what Free of Illusion means to Euchatus?".

Another guide notices that you say:

"There is an emptiness when I look for myself and I am easily returned to enjoying the moment. Beautiful feeling. I'm hoping to be constantly in the moment."

Of course, this is great but sometimes people can hope for some kind of permanent perfect state of mind to appear. Do you see why living in hope of that might, ironically, mean missing what is really going on in the moment?

Which is freer, hoping for a state of mind that may not appear or noticing what is really going on?

love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thank you for the feedback.

"To sit down, ask, feel, contemplate and answer in 8-10 lines what Free of Illusion means to Euchatus?".

Being free of illusion means living peacefully in the moment without hoping or fearing against what is currently happening. It involves finding peace within irregardless of the experience that one is recognizing to be happening. It involves knowing that experiences happening to the body, good or bad, are not being done to who I really am. It is knowing that who I am is the awareness of what is happening. This allows one to peacefully enjoy moments of fear, grief, joy or happiness. Changing the perception from "this is happening to me or I am doing this" to " I am aware of this happening".It is realizing the non separation between who I am and what is happening. It is the identification of no control in what is happening. It is knowing that there is just recognition and no self doing the recognizing.

Of course, this is great but sometimes people can hope for some kind of permanent perfect state of mind to appear. Do you see why living in hope of that might, ironically, mean missing what is really going on in the moment?

Indeed, by hoping for something different to what is happening in the moment, I loose the moment for an illusion supported by thoughts.

Which is freer, hoping for a state of mind that may not appear or noticing what is really going on?

Hoping for a state of mind that may not appear is fighting with what already is and causes distress. Noticing what is really going on is peaceful and freer.

.

[JonathanR]

Hi again Eutychus,

Thanks for thse answers and for elaborating.

Another guide asks about the following:

The thoughts of self are still frequent, they are weak and can be easily dispelled. At times the thoughts are passive, making them difficult to catch. Especially when i'm in a room and people are making references to themselves.

This still has the idea of a need to 'dispell thoughts'. In reality is thought to blame and do thoughts have to be dispelled?

Do you think it might be possible to simply allow the seeing of thoughts to happen?


Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thank you for the question.

This still has the idea of a need to 'dispell thoughts'. In reality is thought to blame and do thoughts have to be dispelled?

Do you think it might be possible to simply allow the seeing of thoughts to happen?

Thoughts occur naturally and have no need to be dispelled and actually may not be dispelled at all. This is because thoughts are equally part of the experience happening in the moment. The moment is as is and cannot be changed as there is no control over the moment happening.

I agree with you that simply allowing thoughts to happen is the best approach as it brings peace with realization that they are happening in the moment. Simply allowing the thoughts to be is recognizing the moment as it is

.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thank you very much for that :-)

Several guides are taking an interest and when that happens it can sometimes take a few days for various questions to be asked. I will post as soon as possible.

love

Jon