Knocking at the gate

[Abraxaz]

What controls thought? What controls your actions? Is it you? Is it the self? We can do the exercises to show what is happening- just want to hear your thoughts first

[Delos333]

I'm not sure what is controlling thoughts and actions since I am noticing there is something which sees it all happening. Could they be functions happening through the body/brain like the blood pumping or digestion etc?
Not really sure.

[Abraxaz]

I'm not sure what is controlling thoughts and actions since I am noticing there is something which sees it all happening.

Great start. In this response you have already seen to some degree. The first part about not knowing is the place to start (it may also be the ending as well) It helps to be OK with not knowing. Most of us are conditioned to require a set answer - this is limiting in that some things don't have answers - and the answers we make only serve to deepen misunderstanding and unclear seeing. Thought this next exercise we are hoping to show how 'the self' can be seen to be not and answer to the question of 'who controls?'
That does not mean that I can tell you an answer.

Could they be functions happening through the body/brain like the blood pumping or digestion etc?

Start to see this as thoughts about what is happening - see how it is different than AE. What is being pointed is not a thought and the seeing can not be found in thoughts.



Here's a very simple exercise you can do while sitting down.

Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which.
Then, when you've chosen one and you feel you wish to, raise that hand into the air.

Do this as many times as you like, but each time you do it - Inquire on this:

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?
What exactly is making that happen?
What do you FIND?

Just as a note, of course the limbs of the body are 'seen' and they are seen to be moving.
Remember we are trying to find what causes such a thing to happen. What and where is the controller found?

[Delos333]

It helps to be OK with not knowing.

Yes only it feels kind of weird because I don't "know" what I'm looking for, which is ok, but it's confounding for the mind hehe.

see how it is different than AE. What is being pointed is not a thought and the seeing can not be found in thoughts.

I am noticing throughout the day and night AE, keeps coming back into focus by itself, without a "me" trying to make it happen.

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?

No

2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?

No

What exactly is making that happen?

I really don't know what makes it happen.

What do you FIND?

There were thoughts and movements and a sense that it's all occurring IN something, but what I'm not sure.

[Abraxaz]

There were thoughts and movements and a sense that it's all occurring IN something, but what I'm not sure.

How do you distinguish what is inside and outside? How are they different and can tell where that divide is? Based on what you've seen, where is the self now for you?

If there is still a place where you are finding it, be open about it. If you can't find it .....

[Delos333]

How do you distinguish what is inside and outside? How are they different and can tell where that divide is?

Thought creates the boundary between inside and outside. It's all in thought.

where is the self now for you?

There are still moments of seeing and then I feel stuck in self again, like finding and losing, like it's right under my nose but I keep losing sight of it. It feels like it's right here and there is frustration because I am really looking. These fleeting moments of seeing just happen on their own, not initiated or done by a me, and then gone just as quickly as they came. This has been happening for the last few days, and I feel I am looking sincerely but I cannot "crack the code" so to speak.

[Abraxaz]

There are still moments of seeing and then I feel stuck in self again, like finding and losing, like it's right under my nose but I keep losing sight of it. It feels like it's right here and there is frustration because I am really looking. These fleeting moments of seeing just happen on their own, not initiated or done by a me, and then gone just as quickly as they came. This has been happening for the last few days, and I feel I am looking sincerely but I cannot "crack the code" so to speak.

I trust you are trying hard and looking sincerely. Never was this in doubt. Try not to get discouraged here - and to give some encouragement, consider the possibility that you have already seen - because in many ways you have. These exercises are all negative in the sense of "this is not here, its not here either." You have consistently seen this - as far as I can tell from your responses. There is no reason to struggle to see something that is not there. The point is to get to the understanding "oh, yes, its not there" There is no need for anything more to happen. No bright lights or end of suffering. This is not about altered consciousness.

For many, the idea of self is strong in their own story of the self. You may think of the self in terms of "I was born here and my parents were these people and I went to this school and then did this job etc..." Its like a book you can pull off the shelf and go over and say "this is MY life"

But look more closely at this. can you remeber what the weather was last year on this day? Or what you ate for dinner 2 weeks ago> Or even the exact moment of the last time you sneezed? Consider how incomplete and inaccurate this collection of memories are then ask "is this what I am calling a self?" How can this be a self? If you die tomorrow who would be able to know the completeness of this story - is it even knowable?

Its not that the story and history are not important - its just that its not a self.

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…

What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Best of luck - and keep up the good work. Try not to get discouraged.

[Delos333]

Thank you for your words of encouragement, maybe I'm missing it because I'm looking for what is not AS a something? I will look into this.

Consider how incomplete and inaccurate this collection of memories are then ask "is this what I am calling a self?" How can this be a self? If you die tomorrow who would be able to know the completeness of this story - is it even knowable?

Seems like just a select bunch of thoughts, and not even accurate to begin with.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

It's made up of thought.

WHEN does the memory appear?

It appears right now.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

I don't see any difference, all just thoughts.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It's just assumed, thought to be so.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Made up of thoughts also.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Right now.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

There's no difference.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It's just an assumption.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

No difference.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is

.
What I've been calling me is just a collection of thoughts supposedly about the past that i assumed to be a solid indication of what I am. Wow, I'll let this sink in :)

[Abraxaz]

Fantastic work

Lets look at of one of the last bastions of the self - time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?



Two last things to consider: 1. often you will mention how you feel the self is not there and then it is again. Let that sink in. Could a true self go away and then come back? what happens when its gone? When its present, is it real?

Look back on our entire thread and get a sense of the AE in each exercise. repeat them if you would like. Keep in mind - you have seen clearly - there may be little more left to do than to trust your AE.

[Delos333]

I was looking and I asked "is there a me?" And I remembered,

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

I kept asking and looking and I saw that I had to go into thought and 'remember' the me like a character from a story I read, that it's not ACTUAL. So I would go into thought and then stop and return to actual experience and there was no me here, only in the thought realm. I have to leave what is really happening and "imagine" the me. I felt a great relief at seeing this, it felt easy to see and quite obvious. How did I not see it before? Probably because I had tons of ideas and expectations that got in the way. But I am going to explore this and test this out. Maybe this is just a first step towards the gate? I don't know but for me this is HUGE. I wanted to tell you asap because doubt might come in and thought might try to trivialize it or push it aside in some way and pick up the search again! A million thanks :)

[Abraxaz]

Fantastic. Exactly right.

Don't worry about holding on to this - once seen it can be seen always. Just like I will probably never be able to convince you that there is a santa clause ever again.

Go ahead and answer the last few questions - they may appear to be very easy with simple answer in light of this insight but it will serve to round out the understanding. Also, do read through your entire thread and let us see if you have any further questions.

Very happy for you.

Two last ideas to play with - again, this may be easy now

1)look at those assumptions that were hindering seeing. What are they - what is an assumption?

2) Also if the idea of the self keeps popping in and out for you (it may), Look to see how that is known? Is that something that is being seen in AE or is it a thought?

There is reason we keep coming back to thought and the nature of thought. Hope this is clear by now.
And again, strong work!

[Delos333]

1)look at those assumptions that were hindering seeing. What are they - what is an assumption?

All just ideas in thought.

2) Also if the idea of the self keeps popping in and out for you (it may), Look to see how that is known? Is that something that is being seen in AE or is it a thought?

Yes and I can see that when the idea of self is running then I am not in AE. It's like dozing off into thought for a bit and the way to snap out of it is by coming back to actual experience, this moment, and I can have a laugh because I don't believe in it anymore!

There is reason we keep coming back to thought and the nature of thought. Hope this is clear by now.

Yes, to keep looking and see the difference between what is just thought and what is actual.

I will read over our thread again from the beginning.

Thank you! :)

[Abraxaz]

Remember the answer the time questions too If you won't mind.

Great job with the other 2 questions

[Delos333]

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No there isn't.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No, it's all one moment.

Any actual experience of one event following another?

No, time is made up, imagined to be so.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It's not going anywhere.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No it's just always here.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Endlessly.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

No beginning and no end.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It doesn't, only in imagination.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It's just thoughts.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No time is only thought to be true.

Could a true self go away and then come back? what happens when its gone? When its present, is it real?

No it couldn't, when I felt it was gone, everything still carried on as always, and when I felt it was present it was only because I was lost in thought, believing in an imagined made up me.

I will read over the whole thread tomorrow,

Deepest thanks :)

[Delos333]

I read the whole dialogue, No questions are coming up, as I think everything was answered in that moment of true seeing :) of course thoughts are still running the usual old tapes, and I seem to get swept up in self, but I only have to stop for a second and really look, or ask "is there a me"?, and I am back in AE. I am grateful to you for pointing and encouraging me to keep looking until I saw it for myself. There is a sense of calm, maybe because the seeking has stopped? Also there are moments of gentle sadness and some emotional release, maybe because an old illusion is seen not to be true, ( I remember I did cry a bit when I found out there was no santa :) anyway not sure what the next step is but I wanted to sincerely thank you for guiding me through this process.