liberated? help please!

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira.

sorry i am late getting back to you. my cfs is flaring up quite badly just now and i may need a day or so
to get back on track. i will answer your latest post as soon as possible.

many thanks!

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

Sure. I obviously don't know your situation, and I wish you well - and the body/mind can come up with all sorts of resistances once the illusion of self is seen through, all sorts of different ways.

Be well
Best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

Suggest you take a walk in nature, watch the birds and the trees and the insects. Do they have a 'me' at the centre? Or are they just life living, nature naturally being? Or watch a cat or dog. Observe closely and let me know what is noticed.

yes it's very obvious there's no 'me' operating in a cat or a bird. not sure why
we are operating like this way when it's clearly superflous. madness really. the
cat seems a lot more content with her lot =)

Watch as the thoughts arise that have an I or a me in them. Do you believe them, or are they experienced differently in some way? Observe closely and let me know what is noticed.

i do still believe in them. it seems a habit more than anything. they aren't as
convincing as before though. they seemed to point to something with 100% certainty
before, but now it's down to 60%. can't put it any better than that really.

Really? What haven't you seen? You've looked and you haven't seen any self.

this belief in self is like chewing your nails or something - you know it's not good for anything but you
find yourself doing it anyway because it's so ingrained. at least that's my guess as to what's going on.
i feel confident though - a bit more looking might be all that's needed!
.

[odemira]

Hi Ger

yes it's very obvious there's no 'me' operating in a cat or a bird. not sure why we are operating like this way when it's clearly superflous. madness really. the cat seems a lot more content with her lot =)

People operate that way because their parents, teachers, friends etc told them all their lives that there is a 'Ger', there is a 'you'. Everyone is operating under the illusion of there being a Self that lives somewhere inside the body/mind, who controls what happens, who experiences what happens. So the story gets built up, the illusion of the character who's lived a particular life, who is a particular way, who suffers. Does a cat retell the story of how it's mother didn't love her, or how tough it is to catch a decent bird? And then feel sad about that story? Or does a cat live in the moment, life being experienced moment by moment?

I am looking for some help seeing the truth of the non-existence of self.

Ger, that was your first post two weeks ago. You looked, you were really observant and precise in your looking, and you have not been able to locate a self except as the subject of a thought. Yes? If you can find it now, tell me where is it?

i do still believe in them. it seems a habit more than anything. they aren't as convincing as before though. they seemed to point to something with 100% certainty before, but now it's down to 60%.

i feel confident though - a bit more looking might be all that's needed!

Great that your belief has decreased by 40%, probably feels like progress.
But is there an I to make progress, except as a thought?
Is there an I that believes in the thoughts of self, except as a thought?
Is there an I that feels confident, except as a thought and a resulting feeling?
Is there an I that needs to do any more looking, except as a thought?

Does the believer, be it with 100% or 40% belief, exist as a separate entity? If you can find it now, tell me where is it?

with best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira!

So the story gets built up, the illusion of the character who's lived a particular life, who is a particular way, who suffers. Does a cat retell the story of how it's mother didn't love her, or how tough it is to catch a decent bird? And then feel sad about that story? Or does a cat live in the moment, life being experienced moment by moment?

lol my cat hasn't even attempted to catch a bird in 5 years - she makes garfield look like an over achiever! i take your point though, she seems to get over bad experiences almost immediately. but i think i'm missing your meaning here. the life was actually lived wasn't it - just not by anyone? there is a scar on my hand from an accident about 10 years ago. you wouldn't say that didn't happen - just that it didn't happen to any 'me'?

you have not been able to locate a self except as the subject of a thought. Yes? If you can find it now, tell me where is it?

i can't find it. even if i did find it i wouldn't know what i've found. i've no idea what a self looks like, sounds like
or feels like. it's obviously just an idea - and a weird one too, an entity with no definable attributes that
everyone believes in. at least god has a long white beard and sits on a cloud, and a unicorn looks like a
horse with a big horn on it's head. this 'me' business is the weirdest belief of all - i have no idea why i would
believe this crap - but damn it seems so real, so credible it could still exist somehow.

But is there an I to make progress, except as a thought?
Is there an I that believes in the thoughts of self, except as a thought?
Is there an I that feels confident, except as a thought and a resulting feeling?
Is there an I that needs to do any more looking, except as a thought?

i can only find the thoughts, and the beliefs, and the confidence, and the desire to look, and the looking itself. also a sort of 'this is true' feeling when the beliefs are strong. not sure why i would get stuck at this point - is this a common place to get bogged down?

many thanks!

[odemira]

Hi Ger

lol my cat hasn't even attempted to catch a bird in 5 years - she makes garfield look like an over achiever! i take your point though, she seems to get over bad experiences almost immediately. but i think i'm missing your meaning here. the life was actually lived wasn't it - just not by anyone? there is a scar on my hand from an accident about 10 years ago. you wouldn't say that didn't happen - just that it didn't happen to any 'me'?

Lol re your cat!

Let's go back to looking, just simple looking, ok? When you look at the mark on your hand, what is actually seen? Look right now, really look for a minute or more. Then tell me what the process was, what happened. We're 'rinsing and repeating' now, but it's the way to get unstuck. Like with a child who believes there's a monster under the bed, the mother needs to say that they'll check under the bed every night to show the child again that there really isn't anything there.

i can only find the thoughts, and the beliefs, and the confidence, and the desire to look, and the looking itself.

And that's all there is, you've realised the truth of no-self, you've crossed the gate. You can relax. Sure you weren't expecting something more? Seems like the truth isn't as you wanted it to be? What's your mind thinking about this? What's it get from hanging on to the idea of there being a self? Is it just habit? Or is it something else? Ask yourself the questions and allow the answers to come into your mind, sit with this.

all the best
Odemira

[GerryBee]

Hi Ger,
the body/mind can come up with all sorts of resistances once the illusion of self is seen through, all sorts of different ways.

that's a little disturbing. i didn't make much of that when you said it but thinking back it does seem possible that
i get unusually tired or perhaps other symptoms when i'm looking very intensely for the self. then i remembered
an interview i saw ages ago where david bingham mentions the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_I2YwGgpk4#t=5m20s

probably best not to get distracted by this type of thing but it's worth keeping in mind!

[GerryBeee]

Let's go back to looking, just simple looking, ok? When you look at the mark on your hand, what is actually seen? Look right now, really look for a minute or more. Then tell me what the process was, what happened. We're 'rinsing and repeating' now, but it's the way to get unstuck.

ok i'll see what's there. since we're getting into the details i'll specify that i was bitten by one of my sister's
pet rats. this one was a little more territorial than any i'd encountered!

hand turns and opens
focusing on thumb
scar is seen
odd feeling in thumb (thumb feels a little odd when stretched out since injury)
memory of sitting on end of bed...
rat is running around on other end of bed...
rat runs over to me...
some sort of pleasant emotion - expectation of friendly interaction maybe?
rat suddenly bites into thumb...
a sort of 'body memory' of the amazing pain - like an electric shock all the way up to the elbow
memory of pulling rat off and running for the bathroom
a memory from later on, asking my sister to get him back into his cage as i was scared to go near him again.

that's about all that comes up.

What's your mind thinking about this? What's it get from hanging on to the idea of there being a self? Is it just habit? Or is it something else? Ask yourself the questions and allow the answers to come into your mind, sit with this.

ok i'll see if i can get to the bottom of it.

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

If you remember, we were exploring how the idea of the self gets constructed and maintained, and you referenced your scar. You did some excellent observing on what happens as you looked at the scar, which will help us see what is real and what is a thought arising and passing in the mind, ok?

hand turns and opens
focusing on thumb
scar is seen
odd feeling in thumb (thumb feels a little odd when stretched out since injury)

This was what was seen and felt, sensory inputs coming to the brain. Real - if you looked again an hour later, or a day later, a similar experience would occur. What is real doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it, right?

memory of sitting on end of bed...
rat is running around on other end of bed...
rat runs over to me...
some sort of pleasant emotion - expectation of friendly interaction maybe?
rat suddenly bites into thumb...
a sort of 'body memory' of the amazing pain - like an electric shock all the way up to the elbow
memory of pulling rat off and running for the bathroom
a memory from later on, asking my sister to get him back into his cage as i was scared to go near him again.

All of this is a series of thoughts/memories that arise, but the content of the thoughts is not real now. There's no rat biting you now. In the same way, if you imagined a rat biting you in the future, there's no rat biting you now. The content of the thoughts about past or future is not real, it is only a thought arising NOW.

You appear to have taken the rat incident quite calmly - many people build the story of the self further by believing thoughts such as 'my sister was mean to me', 'my sister should have kept the rat locked up properly', 'terrible things always happen to me', 'I'm the person who was bitten by a rat' etc. A complete history, all of which creates the belief in an illusory self - as you say about the belief:

and a weird one too, an entity with no definable attributes that everyone believes in.

Is it an entity? Can you have an entity with no definable attributes? What is real doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it, right?

the body/mind can come up with all sorts of resistances once the illusion of self is seen through, all sorts of different ways.



that's a little disturbing. i didn't make much of that when you said it but thinking back it does seem possible that
i get unusually tired or perhaps other symptoms when i'm looking very intensely for the self.

What's disturbing about that, Ger? I watched the youtube video, thanks for the link. The mind is protective of its belief in the self, because it thinks it is necessary to protect the body/mind. So sometimes it doesn't give up the belief without fighting back. We have an aftercare group on LU to support people post-gate, because resistance does arise even when the illusion of self has been seen. It can often appear as fear. So maybe for you the resistance appears as bodily symptoms? All the resistances pass!

Seems like the truth isn't as you wanted it to be? What's your mind thinking about this? What's it get from hanging on to the idea of there being a self? Is it just habit? Or is it something else? Ask yourself the questions and allow the answers to come into your mind, sit with this.

Look forward to your answers.

Best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

This was what was seen and felt, sensory inputs coming to the brain. Real - if you looked again an hour later, or a day later, a similar experience would occur. What is real doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it, right?

yes that's fair enough. i was a big philip k dick fan back in the day so i've thought a lot about that quote. it'll make a nice yardstick for our purposes i reckon.

and a weird one too, an entity with no definable attributes that everyone believes in.

Is it an entity? Can you have an entity with no definable attributes?

i just mean that this 'me' has no attributes that can be determined. this alone would suggest it's a creation of imagination only!

So maybe for you the resistance appears as bodily symptoms? All the resistances pass!

i sure hope so - it's been an unusually hard week since i've been really looking at this. it's tough just to write this post this evening!

What's your mind thinking about this? What's it get from hanging on to the idea of there being a self? Is it just habit? Or is it something else? Ask yourself the questions and allow the answers to come into your mind, sit with this.

i've been having a good look at this since yesterday. i don't feel too confident bout whether i'm seeing the answer but there does seem to be a mechanism operating that wants the self illusion to remain in place. i think the problem lis a kind of worry that without 'me' everything will fall apart or something bad will happen. it's like i believe i am a necessity. i can't get a clear look at it but that's what it seems to be. i find it very perplexing that i am so eager to see the truth of this and yet in a way i am working against my own efforts. stranger and stranger. if i find any more i will let you know =)
.

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

Getting there! I'm impressed by your clarity of looking in this process.

What is real doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it, right? - it'll make a nice yardstick for our purposes i reckon.

Yes indeed!

there does seem to be a mechanism operating that wants the self illusion to remain in place. i think the problem is a kind of worry that without 'me' everything will fall apart or something bad will happen. it's like i believe i am a necessity.

Quite probably so. The bundle of thoughts and feelings that constitute the illusion of a 'self' can indeed have many 'reasons' why it thinks it needs to be there, all of them self-protective. Which is ludicrous, an illusory character protecting it's own illusion, but that tends to be what happens. If the thought is believed that I am real, then the thought is believed that I need protecting from the world out there.

So let's look at the worries - this may sound strange, but it works well to thank your mind for bringing you these thoughts, and then ask the questions below (because thoughts are like messengers, once acknowledged their job is done and they can disappear. But if you push them away, they keep coming back to try and get to be heard.)

Based on what you've seen, is it true that without the belief in the self everything will fall apart?
Is it true that without the belief in the self to protect 'you', something bad will happen?

Keep looking, Ger!
with best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

i'll get back to your last post in a short while. some other stuff coming up as i sit here.

What is real doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it, right?

this was on my mind a lot again today. also "that which is real doesn't come and go" hit me again. think i read that in a nonduality book a couple of years back. it's very true though - another very good yardstick.

i think i already mentioned that i clearly 'go' every night during sleep.

i was just watching some footage of the watergate scandal on tv. i was thinking it would have been interesting to have lived through that - to have watched it unfold. the earliest american president i have memories of is reagan - nixon is interesting to me though. come back to this...

then the sleep thing again - going at night, coming back in the morning. that bites pretty deep, but not all that deep. there's still some belief that maybe i don't really 'go' during sleep. that i'm still there on the bed, not really 'going' - i still exist, just that i'm asleep on the bed.

but watergate. there's *no doubt whatsoever* i didn't exist during watergate. no doubt!

so how could i go from certainly not existing during watergate to existing now? that's impossible. IMPOSSIBLE!!

unless you believe in magic and something magical happens during conception. but i don't believe in souls, spirits, or yahweh breathing life into inanimate matter or whatever. that's fantasy island on goddamn steroids.

magic isn't real.

how can something that is real go from not existing to existing? it's not possible - it can't. it's not just that i don't exist - it is *literally IMPOSSIBLE* that i could exist.

holy shit that is deeper than the sleep thing. guess it only works when layered on top of a naturalistic worldview though. a christian would squeeze around that easily enough. it seems worth posting though. i'll do a bit more digging into that too. get back to other post later... =)
.

[odemira]

that which is real doesn't come and go

i think i already mentioned that i clearly 'go' every night during sleep.

If your first statement is true, how can the second statement be true?
What is the I that is mentioned 3 times in the second statement? 'I think' 'I mentioned' 'I go' - Where exactly are these I's to be found???

hen the sleep thing again - going at night, coming back in the morning. that bites pretty deep, but not all that deep. there's still some belief that maybe i don't really 'go' during sleep. that i'm still there on the bed, not really 'going' - i still exist, just that i'm asleep on the bed.

What is it that 'goes at night, comes back in the morning'? Really look at what that is.
The body/mind still exists, the body/mind is sleeping on the bed - YES. Are you the body/mind? Is there a 'you' somewhere in the body/mind except as a thought? A thought that labels sensory inputs. What's the job of the mind? What did you discover before about how the sensory input/thought/feeling/thought loop works? Can you apply it to what is happening when the body/mind awakes from sleep?

it's not just that i don't exist - it is *literally IMPOSSIBLE* that i could exist.

How does it feel to realise that, Ger, that it is literally impossible that the self exists as a separate entity now, and never has done?

guess it only works when layered on top of a naturalistic worldview though. a christian would squeeze around that easily enough.

Can you clarify this for me?
Sometimes the self has another way of evading the realisation of not being real by producing lots of philosophical thoughts. So just keep it simple, Ger, keep bringing your investigations back to direct looking.

with best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira! distracting stuff came up today but i am back again. =)

Based on what you've seen, is it true that without the belief in the self everything will fall apart?
Is it true that without the belief in the self to protect 'you', something bad will happen?

logically i have to say no. lots of people have seen this and everything doesn't fall apart after
it's seen. i can't see how this would be a bad thing - it seems to be a totally irrational fear. a bit
like a phobia maybe?

What is it that 'goes at night, comes back in the morning'? Really look at what that is.

it's just a belief. when thinking stops during sleep there is no belief in me. but when the body wakes up and
thinking starts again the belief in me comes back. ger doesn't come and go but the belief does. this ties
both of our yardsticks together - ger only exists in belief, and that which goes away when you stop believing
in it (as in when the body is asleep) cannot be real.

How does it feel to realise that, Ger, that it is literally impossible that the self exists as a separate entity now, and never has done?

this is very helpful. believing in a logical impossibility is hard for the mind to do! this is putting real pressure on this whole thing now, it could snap very easily under these conditions.

Can you clarify this for me?

yeah if i was still a christian i'd wriggle out of that point by thinking my soul has always existed or else god brought it into existence at the moment of conception or some other silliness. at least i don't have to work against that as well - this is tricky enough to see as it is!

Sometimes the self has another way of evading the realisation of not being real by producing lots of philosophical thoughts. So just keep it simple, Ger, keep bringing your investigations back to direct looking.

[/quote][/quote]
yes the only way to see it is to see it. i'm still looking!

many thanks!

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

Based on what you've seen, is it true that without the belief in the self everything will fall apart?
Is it true that without the belief in the self to protect 'you', something bad will happen?



logically i have to say no. lots of people have seen this and everything doesn't fall apart after
it's seen. i can't see how this would be a bad thing - it seems to be a totally irrational fear. a bit
like a phobia maybe?

Remember that a fear is a physical manifestation of a thought. Once the thought is seen to be false, the fear disappears, unless the same thought is believed again. It seems people do have a fear of things falling apart if there's no self there to control them - but there never has been any self there to control things, it's all been happening automatically.

Are there any other fearful consequences of releasing the belief in the self? Sit with this question, and let the mind give answers gradually - sometimes these can take a while to surface.

it's just a belief. when thinking stops during sleep there is no belief in me. but when the body wakes up and
thinking starts again the belief in me comes back. ger doesn't come and go but the belief does. this ties
both of our yardsticks together - ger only exists in belief, and that which goes away when you stop believing
in it (as in when the body is asleep) cannot be real.

YES!

Even when we stop believing in Santa Claus, we still see images of him every Christmas - just now we know he isn't real. We may even play along with the game that he delivers all the presents, not our parents, but now we know it is a just a game.

believing in a logical impossibility is hard for the mind to do! this is putting real pressure on this whole thing now, it could snap very easily under these conditions.

Good, keep looking.

this is tricky enough to see as it is!

How clever the mind is! It produces the very thought that prevents its non-existence being seen. This is SIMPLE, Ger, tell your mind that it is SIMPLE to see that there is no self there. You're already looking at its absence every moment. There is just LOOKING, just SEEING, no YOU doing it.

As you say, keep looking and let the belief snap away.

with best wishes
Odemira