Requesting guidance

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

If you imagined that there may be someone standing just behind you, but you were not really sure about this but you wanted to find out, what would you do?

I most likely would turn my head around and take a look.

Regards,
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic

The strings of interconnectedness that held all the processes and stuff together has been loosened up to allow these different things to be seen as somewhat separate and not necessarily one big mass of 'I' experience.

This is very good actually. So does it now seem to you that there is raw sensation (the five senses) and then also thoughts that appear about all sorts of things, commenting and labeling and narrating?

This narrative that goes on mentally. Are you that narrator?

Is there a 'you' that 'narrates'?

Do 'you' 'think' these thoughts?

Are sensations 'you'?



Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Hope you are well.

This is very good actually.

Thank you

So does it now seem to you that there is raw sensation (the five senses) and then also thoughts that appear about all sorts of things, commenting and labeling and narrating?

In moments of reflection yes Jon, that is the case. But not when Mic in in auto pilot - although even in autopilot there is increasing differentiation.

This narrative that goes on mentally. Are you that narrator?
Is there a 'you' that 'narrates'?

No it is not me, it is not the I. The reason it is not the I is because there is no I. The second reason is because when it is compared to all the other stuff happening, it is possible to see that it is just another dose of stuff (to be lined up like all the other stuff). The third reason the narrating is not I, is because it is inconsistent, there may well be patterns but not unified or consistent. The narrator can be going in one direction in one time frame, and then in an opposite direction in another time frame.
Again having said all that it can feel like I. When I say 'feel', I cannot pin point a particular sensation beyond noting that the narrating is very comfortable and confident in its own spin and if feels very familiar - familiar like there is an expectation that it would be there - a belief or assumption you might say. There is no experience of surprise arising from its existence.

And again it is possible to see through this with reflection and asking the direct question 'is this narrating me/I/self?' Which brings me back to the top - No it is not me, it is not I.
Even as I write this, the narrating that comes up with the words even feels very comfortable, as if it belongs, easy to fall into identifying with it - Until it is questioned, interrogated. Breaking that seems like quite a task, there is a long way to go in shifting this mountain!

Do 'you' 'think' these thoughts?

Well the thoughts are thought by Mic, insofar as they are not thought by Jon, or by my wife. But No these thoughts are not I, not me - for pretty much the same list of reasons that narrating is not I. Again there is a tendency to identify with them, until that is challenged with reflexivity.

This is a useful summary, all the 'stuff' is layed out on the table and non of it represents an I. Not when it is taken collectively nor viewed individually.

Talk again soon Jon,
Much thanks,
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic

Even as I write this, the narrating that comes up with the words even feels very comfortable, as if it belongs, easy to fall into identifying with it - Until it is questioned, interrogated. Breaking that seems like quite a task, there is a long way to go in shifting this mountain!

Breaking is an interesting idea. Is that what we are trying to do?

Is it like a mountain that needs shifting? What constitutes 'mountain'? And who or what would go about doing 'breaking'?



Jon

[Treelife]

Breaking is an interesting idea. Is that what we are trying to do?
Is it like a mountain that needs shifting? What constitutes 'mountain'?

Yes the metaphor of a mountain seems to fit. The belief/assumption of I/self is big, very big. Despite I now have some ability to see that it is there, getting to the other side of it - no self - is very distant and obstructed by the mountain/obstacle.
The belief (in I/self) the belief in this constructed false self - yes I think ‘breaking’ is a word that seems to fit with my experience of this "campaign". It feels like a campaign. Like I am battling against something; something that is against me and is to be defeated. A fight to the death - the death of the constructed false self – maybe that is a bit melodramatic.

And who or what would go about doing 'breaking'?

Jon I will also add; who is the I that feels like they are in a campaign? Who is doing the ‘battling against something that is against me’? Who is the ‘me’ that it is against?
Hmmmmmm the best honest answer that arises is, inner conflict. One part of Mic that believes there is a higher truth about the nature of Mic (that questions if there is a separate self at all). Related is a part that wants to know that higher truth. Another part of Mic holds the belief and identity of the ‘I’, separate self. Other parts of Mic are afraid of losing the separate self identity, fear the consequences – fear that Mic will not be able to fulfil his responsibilities, fear Mic will cease to exist in any form etc.... It is my experience that inside Mic’s skin there are multiple competing narratives. None of them can be said to represent the I. Although any one of them, or the collective of them, is capable of representing the identity of I.

Ehhh, ye, I think this represents my thoughts on the matter. And who or what would go about doing 'breaking'? One part of Mic that believes there is a higher truth about the nature of Mic (that questions if there is a separate self at all) – feels like battling the idea of a false separate self. But that is just a thought/belief, so how can that ‘break’ another thought?
This is interesting, allowing observing to surface and just noting the two different beliefs face off each other. But they are not facing each other off, they are just thoughts that are arising and rotating. Yet it is so god dam magnetic, getting pulled into the internal debate. Wanting one side of the debate to win out and identifying with that narrating discourse as if that is the I – when really it is little more than another thought in the long line up of ever rotating thoughts! Desire in also playing a role in the this process, wanting. But of course non if this is ‘I’.
My head is tired I’m going to bed now.
Jon, on Saturday I am going on holidays and will not be in a position to access a PC therefore I will just be able to respond via my phone. So from Saturday onwards the responses are likely to be shorter than what I have been providing.

Much love and gratitude and keep the questions and exercises coming,

M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Thanks for telling me about your holiday. Actually, I need to let you know. too, that I will be out of touch for several days, next Thursday until the following Monday to be precise.

The belief/assumption of I/self is big, very big.

In the story of Mic there is an assumption of an 'I' that is believed to be 'big like a mountain' and needing a 'campaign' to be 'broken'.

We are not investigating 'self' here so as to break anything, even if that were possible or desirable. Some spiritual teachers may have spoken in these terms and this can leave an impression or story that there is something very difficult to wrestle with, like the idea of the unconscious Id from psychology?

We're aiming for something very different than a battle or division. One can view this in terms of simply seeing that there is no inherent self or, that there is no separation or arbitrary cut-off line anywhere in the experience of life between 'self' (what I imagine 'myself' to be) and absolutely everything else.

A fight to the death - the death of the constructed false self – maybe that is a bit melodramatic.

Perhaps it's enough to simply notice thoughts that suggest 'self', 'me', 'mine' ?
Do 'you' 'think' these or do they just turn up?
Outside of these, where, exactly, is this mountain?

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi again Jon,

Perhaps it's enough to simply notice thoughts that suggest 'self', 'me', 'mine' ?
Do 'you' 'think' these or do they just turn up?

I don't 'think' them. They are way too subtle to be considered 'think'. The presence of an 'I' is more of an assumption, or a core belief. As I eat a pack of m&m's now while writing this there is the taste of the m&m's and within the experience of the taste there in an implicit assumption that 'I am eating these sweets'. It is not experienced as a thought it is an assumption, a belief beyond a thought. But as I now seek to identify, to look for the 'I' that is embodied in this assumption, well.....there is none. There is not 'I' tasting the m&m's. Equally the significant pain in my neck, expresses an inherent assumption that there is a 'self' experiencing the pain, and when I go seek out that self (in this moment of reflection) there is no self to be found.
Over the holidays I will put some effort into "noticing...(experiences) that suggest self, me, mine" and see where that takes me.

Outside of these, where, exactly, is this mountain?

The word mountain is used as a metaphor. The mountain represents an obstacle to achieving the aim - the realization of the truth, a truth that I am understanding to be the non existence of a separate self. What is the obstacle? The obstacle is the assumption/core belief that is mentioned above.

Soon Jon,
Peace and love
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

What is the obstacle? The obstacle is the assumption/core belief that is mentioned above.

The 'mountain'?

Listen, you are taking this as a literal 'thing'. Just like a real mountain. But it's not a real mountain.

In the story of Mic there is a 'mind' that is 'mountainous'.

So you will doubtless think 'Stupid Jon doesn't get it!... But I understand that you keep referring to a lifetime of conditioning, programming and assumptions. And I appreciate that these can be a concern for the mind. The mind is always concerned about all this stuff that isn't right yet, must be changed.

Look. (don't think ABOUT) but really look for 'Mind'?

In actual experience (not reasoning about it) is there 'A mind'?

If in doubt, rub your hands. Is there a sensation actually happening to which we can say 'yes, warmth, hands rubbing'?

Bar all the reasoning about and learning to do with 'Mind', is there a thing 'there', 'Mind'?


love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

Stupid Jon doesn't get it!...

No that is not the case, not at all, I am aware I am not getting it. You have put effort into trying to explain further how I am to interpret and respond the questions and thanks for that, but I'm not sure I am any closer. Having said that I'll try change track and see where it takes us.

Look. (don't think ABOUT) but really look for 'Mind'?

I'm not clear what that means, 'mind'.

In actual experience (not reasoning about it) is there 'A mind'?
If in doubt, rub your hands. Is there a sensation actually happening to which we can say 'yes, warmth, hands rubbing'?

Yes, I feel touch and also warmth sensations.

Bar all the reasoning about and learning to do with 'Mind', is there a thing 'there', 'Mind'?

In the sensation there is no thought' - if that what you mean by mind. If not then I really am confused in this.

Thanks Jon
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

No that is not the case, not at all, I am aware I am not getting it. You have put effort into trying to explain further how I am to interpret and respond the questions and thanks for that, but I'm not sure I am any closer. Having said that I'll try change track and see where it takes us.

OK :-) If there is a magic way to 'do' this it isn't in the use of the mind to analyze.

Another thing that may help is to look for a gap between thoughts. That is, look for the occasion that the last thought has finished but the next one is yet to appear. This can be quite subtle but see if is possible to notice any sort of gap or space. If so then look into that allow there to be a natural interest in it.

I'm not clear what that means, 'mind'.

OK, no worries. It doesn't matter what it means. If the question sets you thinking about 'mind' it's the wrong question.

In the sensation there is no thought' - if that what you mean by mind. If not then I really am confused in this.

Don't worry about definitions of 'mind'. My questions weren't meant to make you deliberate at all but look, in the way it's possible to look for 'self'.


love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

Another thing that may help is to look for a gap between thoughts. That is, look for the occasion that the last thought has finished but the next one is yet to appear. This can be quite subtle but see if is possible to notice any sort of gap or space. If so then look into that allow there to be a natural interest in it.

There is sensation. Between thoughts there is sensations.

I

f in doubt, rub your hands. Is there a sensation actually happening to which we can say 'yes, warmth, hands rubbing'?

There is feeling of touch, and warmth.

Bar all the reasoning about and learning to do with 'Mind', is there a thing 'there', 'Mind'?

In the sensation there is just sensation - mind is elsewhere.

Soon Jon
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

. Bar all the reasoning about and learning to do with 'Mind', is there a thing 'there', 'Mind'?
In the sensation there is just sensation - mind is elsewhere.

When you say sensation, are you talking about the rubbing hands together feeling or something else?

Where is mind if it is elsewhere?

. There is sensation. Between thoughts there is sensations.

Simply relax and notice any thoughts that appear. These could be about anything, whatever appears. It might be that you notice a stream of thoughts, like various announcements over a loudspeaker system or it might be a series if images, or a mix of these.

Just notice thoughts appearing and see if it is possible to find a moment or 'gap' after the end of one thought but before the next has appeared.

What's that like?


Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

When you say sensation, are you talking about the rubbing hands together feeling or something else?
Where is mind if it is elsewhere?
When you say sensation, are you talking about the rubbing hands together feeling or something else?
Where is mind if it is elsewhere?

Sensations arising out of rubbing hands.
The mind, there is none in the hands sensation. The thoughts are else where.

Simply relax and notice any thoughts that appear. These could be about anything, whatever appears. It might be that you notice a stream of thoughts, like various announcements over a loudspeaker system or it might be a series if images, or a mix of these.

Just notice thoughts appearing and see if it is possible to find a moment or 'gap' after the end of one thought but before the next has appeared.

What's that like?

With eye open there is a stream of narrating, comments, instructions.
With eyes closed there is the self talk along with images.
Gaps between thoughts, it is difficult, not so clear when a thought ends and starts, but possible. What is left is sense input, mostly sensations in the body, also images and sounds. Sometimes easy to be with, sometimes not.

Thanks Jon and Talk soon
M

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

When you say sensation, are you talking about the rubbing hands together feeling or something else?
Where is mind if it is elsewhere?
When you say sensation, are you talking about the rubbing hands together feeling or something else?
Where is mind if it is elsewhere?

Sensations arising out of rubbing hands.
The mind, there is none in the hands sensation. The thoughts are else where.

Simply relax and notice any thoughts that appear. These could be about anything, whatever appears. It might be that you notice a stream of thoughts, like various announcements over a loudspeaker system or it might be a series if images, or a mix of these.

Just notice thoughts appearing and see if it is possible to find a moment or 'gap' after the end of one thought but before the next has appeared.

What's that like?

With eye open there is a stream of narrating, comments, instructions.
With eyes closed there is the self talk along with images.
Gaps between thoughts, it is difficult, not so clear when a thought ends and starts, but possible. What is left is sense input, mostly sensations in the body, also images and sounds. Sometimes easy to be with, sometimes not.

Thanks Jon and Talk soon
M

[Treelife]

Another thing Jon,
The thought that all the meaning of everything else, all the judgements and stuff, that they are not real, but mere ideas and beliefs, is stronger after that last exercise. The meaning and beliefs of stuff is less prevalent in this moment.
Regards
M