Living in enlightenment

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

I appreciate your guidance through these exercises. They have been of great help to me and help to shift my interpretation on life.

That seems to be what they do. But is it 'you' that creates these thoughts? It may seem like a strange question to ask but look at it. Conventionally there is the idea that 'I think thoughts', but is this what actually happens?

Not so, I cant create any thoughts or think them out. It is liberating to see this "limitation". I often fought off negative thoughts and embraced the positive ones as my own. After this exercise, I understand that even the labeling of thoughts as positive or negative is a thought on its own, which is not my own. Amazing

Is there a self busy at work behind the scenes controlling thoughts, deciding which ones to think and which ones not to think? Or is it more like listening some kind of announcements made over a tannoy?

There is no self controlling the thoughts. I agree with you that it is more like listening to some kind of announcements.

I apologize if I already asked you to do this but is it possible to create or 'think' a thought? Try it.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No need for apology, this is transformation in every sense of the word. I am grateful for your input. I see what you are driving at , it is amazing to see the passivity of thoughts, they are all happening on their own uninfluenced by 'me'.

It is impossible to prevent a thought from appearing. I can allow myself victory over them by choosing to see them as just that, thoughts.

Eutychus

[JonathanR]

Hey Euchytus,

I appreciate your guidance through these exercises. They have been of great help to me and help to shift my interpretation on life.

My pleasure.

Not so, I cant create any thoughts or think them out. It is liberating to see this "limitation". I often fought off negative thoughts and embraced the positive ones as my own. After this exercise, I understand that even the labeling of thoughts as positive or negative is a thought on its own, which is not my own. Amazing

Yes. It truly is amazing. Well done.

It is impossible to prevent a thought from appearing. I can allow myself victory over them by choosing to see them as just that, thoughts.

Here's an interesting question then. Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?


love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Here's an interesting question then. Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

I believe it is impossible to prevent thoughts from appearing because they are part of our experience, the thought 'I' helps us to communicate with others as a reference, but not to be mistaken for true identity of being.


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[JonathanR]

Thanks Euchytus,

. I can allow myself victory over them by choosing to see them as just that, thoughts.

Interesting. Well, thoughts really appear as you say. They are part of our experience. So tell me the sense in which they are 'just thoughts'? This is very interesting.


Love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Interesting. Well, thoughts really appear as you say. They are part of our experience. So tell me the sense in which they are 'just thoughts'? This is very interesting.

Thank you, I believe thoughts are instruments we use to shape our reality, having no apparent truth in them until enough attention is laid on them. If I entertain particular thoughts which have appeared then after a while I will be able to see its manifestation in the physical. Without paying regard or attention to the same thoughts and by not fighting them, they disappear and pave way for the more dominant thoughts. In this way, through the bank of the subconscious mind, we create 'reality' of the physical world and also alter that which we don't appreciate in our 'reality'

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[JonathanR]

Hi Euchytus,

Thoughts really appear and can be noticed to appear. Would you say this is true?

Breathing happens, hearing happens, various sensations are really experienced. 'I' don't make them happen but there is the experience of them happening. Is this true from your experience?

Do you notice that each thought has its own message or comment? Its labeling, its interpretation?

Here is an exercise:

Find a piece of fruit, a melon maybe or orange or other fruit. Leave the fruit somewhere and go to a different room or outside, so you can't see the fruit.

Now, try to imagine holding the fruit and the experience of that, its colour, texture, smell and so on. Close your eyes to do this if it helps.

Now go back to find the real fruit. Pick it up and notice the full experience of this real fruit. How does this experience compare with the one where thought was used to imagine the fruit?

What do you notice about the two different experiences?


Love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thoughts really appear and can be noticed to appear. Would you say this is true?

Breathing happens, hearing happens, various sensations are really experienced. 'I' don't make them happen but there is the experience of them happening. Is this true from your experience?

Do you notice that each thought has its own message or comment? Its labeling, its interpretation?

I agree with you, thoughts just appear on their own, carrying their own labeling and interpretation.

What do you notice about the two different experiences?

When I close my eyes to hold the fruit, the fruit feels incomplete but largely compensated for by convincing thoughts, I am able to feel it and smell it. It is "empty" and unsatisfying.

When I hold the actual fruit in my hand, there are no thoughts about it. It is just happening, there is holding of a fruit happening. The experience is complete and non conceptual.

It is not 'justifiable' unlike the experience of imagining holding the fruit. When I imagine the fruit, I have myself convinced of its being with layers and layers of organized beliefs (thoughts), such as " it is red in color","it is a fruit","i am holding a fruit".

When I step out of imagination and hold the fruit in my hand, there is just the experience,complete and unjustified(not supported by thoughts).


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[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thanks for trying the fruit exercise and making the comparison.

From what we have discussed so far, what strikes you as the mist interesting thing? Have we addressed your feelings about separation or about feeling like a passive sort of witness? If not we can do more work in this area.

Love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thanks for trying the fruit exercise and making the comparison.

From what we have discussed so far, what strikes you as the mist interesting thing?

Thank you for your guidance and patience so far. What has been most interesting to me is the lack of a witness. A few weeks back and I struggled with "living life as a passive witness". This had weighed heavily on me and did not feel right.Something believed there has to be something better. Now by seeing thoughts for what they are I subtly realize that all is as is. There is no witness in life, there is life expressing itself.

Have we addressed your feelings about separation or about feeling like a passive sort of witness? If not we can do more work in this area.

Yes, I wouldn't mind a bit more especially on non separation.I believe the fruit exercise was precisely on non separation.From my point of experience it is as though separation starts in the mind and is completely lost in the moment. How true is this statement?


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[JonathanR]

Now by seeing thoughts for what they are I subtly realize that all is as is. There is no witness in life, there is life expressing itself.

That's beautiful! And is there a different sort of feeling, now that this is seen?

Yes, I wouldn't mind a bit more especially on non-separation.I believe the fruit exercise was precisely on non-separation. From my point of experience, it is as though separation starts in the mind and is completely lost in the moment. How true is this statement?

Maybe you will be able to answer this shortly? It sounds good to me :-)

When you get the chance, go for a walk in nature. This could simply be a park, or by the sea or some woods. Where life is happening all around. Sky is blue or cloudy, sunshine or rain, trees, sounds, grass, insects, animals, people...everything happening, alive!

Now, just sit or stand and notice all this. All sights, sounds, smells, and any other sensations, as well as thoughts and feelings. Now, look into this experience to see if it is possible to find a line or edge between 'you' and 'everything else'? Is there a cutoff line where 'you' finish and 'everything else' begins?

Tell me how it goes?


love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Eutychus,

How is it going?

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

How is it going?

All is well. I wanted to repeat the exercise before responding to it. At first time I had difficulty because I was trying to answer from where I start and end in the exercise.

When you get the chance, go for a walk in nature. This could simply be a park, or by the sea or some woods. Where life is happening all around. Sky is blue or cloudy, sunshine or rain, trees, sounds, grass, insects, animals, people...everything happening, alive!

Now, just sit or stand and notice all this. All sights, sounds, smells, and any other sensations, as well as thoughts and feelings. Now, look into this experience to see if it is possible to find a line or edge between 'you' and 'everything else'? Is there a cutoff line where 'you' finish and 'everything else' begins?

Tell me how it goes?

It is really amazing, there is no point for me to begin and other things. There is no separating line or margin. Infact, "me" is unidentifiable but from the awareness that pervades all things and sounds I am able to recognize. It all feels as one vibration


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[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Great!. Yes, good idea to repeat the exercise. Though what you have said is great.

It is really amazing, there is no point for me to begin and other things. There is no separating line or margin. Infact, "me" is unidentifiable but from the awareness that pervades all things and sounds I am able to recognize. It all feels as one vibration

Beautiful. I know that we must use words to describe things but is there a 'you' that 'recognizes' ?


love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Eutychus,

I don't know if I mentioned it to you but I will be away and unable to post for a few days starting Thursday this week and lasting until at least Monday. But we can exchange posts today and tomorrow if you like?

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

I don't know if I mentioned it to you but I will be away and unable to post for a few days starting Thursday this week and lasting until at least Monday. But we can exchange posts today and tomorrow if you like?

It is well, whatever works will be fine by me.

Beautiful. I know that we must use words to describe things but is there a 'you' that 'recognizes' ?

Wow this is incredible. There is no me. "Recognition" is being done by this body for its own role in the experience.