Revealing the mystery

[Mysterybox]

Dear Kay,

This point seems to be tough one.. But lets go.

Since hearing and sound are one in the same, then where is the hearer? Where does hearing end and sound begin?

There is no hearer. There is no difference between a sound and hearing.

So does the label/thought ‘mind’ point to actual experience of anything else other than the actual experience of thought?

No, the label "mind" is only an actual experience of thought.

And how is it known that “it is possible to go back to the thought”, because a thought said so?

It is just another thought that comes up about re-thinking a thought.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them.

There is no thinker, there are only thoughts. That's why there is no controlling or choosing of thoughts because there is no-one who controls/chooses.

Why would you want to push away a thought unless the thought has already been seen, otherwise there would be no reason in trying to push away a thought. So, since the thought has already been seen, is there any actual pushing away of thought or does another thought appear saying “I am pushing away that thought”?

It is only an another thought that appears.

If you are the controller/thinker of thought, why on earth would you even choose to have any unpleasant thoughts at all?
Think of a thought and I want you to stop thinking of thought in the middle of that thought. Now how long is a thought and where exactly is the middle? Where does one thought end and another begin?

I see it now, there is no controller/thinker. There are only thoughts. They come and go.

While you were LOOKING…did you actually see this “storytelling mind” create “this web of thoughts” or is that just another appearing thought that said “thoughts are rising from the storytelling mind so the mind is creating this web of thoughts”?

I'am laughing at my yesterdays answers! :D Oh my...
Yep, it is just another thought.
Thank you Kay for your patience!

And what exactly are stories made up of? Are they not just thoughts that are being described as storytelling thoughts by another thought?

Yes, stories are just thoughts.

In the morning when reading your post it felt impossible to understand anything. But somehow you know just which buttons to press so that I can slowly take the steps and look. So thank you!

Love, Sanna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Sanna,

Lovely LOOKING! :)

So is it clear that there is no thinker of thought...that thoughts appear but there is no thinker or controller of thought? So although thinking SEEMS to happen and will continue to appear as if there is a thinker who is thinking, that that is in itself just another thought story 'told' by thought...in other words is thought about thought?

Okay, let's move on and look a little deeper at the idea of control, decisions and choice.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay
xx

[Mysterybox]

Good evening Kay,

So is it clear that there is no thinker of thought...that thoughts appear but there is no thinker or controller of thought? So although thinking SEEMS to happen and will continue to appear as if there is a thinker who is thinking, that that is in itself just another thought story 'told' by thought...in other words is thought about thought?

Yes, is it clear, no thinker, no controller of thoughts. Only thoughts and thoughts about thoughts.

How is the movement controlled?

The movement is not controlled, it is just happening.

Does a thought control it?

No, there is only a thought about hand moving, but a thought doesn't control the movement.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, there is no controller.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is no decision making about turning the hand over.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, not able to find no-one or anything that is choosing.

Starting to feel somehow more distant from "me". Interesting feeling, not scary, just interesting.

Love, S

[forgetmenot]

Hey Sanna,

Wonderful LOOKING!

Starting to feel somehow more distant from "me". Interesting feeling, not scary, just interesting.

Beautiful! If fear or resistance do appear....let me know and we can look at it together.

So...let's have a closer look at choice.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love, Kay
xx

[Mysterybox]

Hi Kay,

I've noticed a fear that I'm "performing" these exercises using the mind, not really seeing/looking. That I'm faking my answers! Can I fool myself so much? That's why the exercises are really good, there is smaller possibility to fake :D

Still there is this same experience taking more and more space: like I/me/Sanna is not here but there is this movie/play playing in front of "me". Like my eyes are just empty holes seeing things happening.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Qualities are thoughts about thoughts and there was no choosing, they just appeared. Also the preference is a thought and it just popped up.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

Same answer: no choosing, just thoughts appearing. A thought about counting put the thought about the preferences to the back seat. Did not find any function or faculty doing the choosing.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No chooser was found. (Finding some resistance within me with this, some part of me trying to get a grip of this even though I understand that this cannot be understood by mind but just pure looking.)

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A feeling is also just a thought so it cannot choose.

Thank you Kay for your help,
much love, Sanna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Sanna,

I've noticed a fear that I'm "performing" these exercises using the mind, not really seeing/looking. That I'm faking my answers! Can I fool myself so much? That's why the exercises are really good, there is smaller possibility to fake :D

Don’t worry… I will know if your answers are not from looking but from thinking…and so far you are doing a marvellous job at LOOKING :) Doubts will appear, that is normal.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Qualities are thoughts about thoughts and there was no choosing, they just appeared. Also the preference is a thought and it just popped up.

Lovely! :) Isn’t it great to see what thoughts do and how they spin stories!

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

Same answer: no choosing, just thoughts appearing. A thought about counting put the thought about the preferences to the back seat. Did not find any function or faculty doing the choosing.

Nice!

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No chooser was found. (Finding some resistance within me with this, some part of me trying to get a grip of this even though I understand that this cannot be understood by mind but just pure looking.)

Okay, so let’s have a look at the idea of ‘resistance’.

The label ‘resistance’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of resistance
The thoughts about resistance is the AE of thought and not the AE of resistance
The sensations labelled ‘resistance’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of resistance
The image labelled ‘me/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of resistance.

So, in actual experience is ‘resistance’ actually known or what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A feeling is also just a thought so it cannot choose.

Yes! Unless the ‘feeling’ is an actual sensation…then it is only a thought. Nice! :)

One last look at choices and at the idea of 'doership'.

Do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?
If you think that you do, think about this:
If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.

Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Love, Kay
xx

[Mysterybox]

Hi Kay,

Thank you for your support!

So, in actual experience is ‘resistance’ actually known or what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance?

Got it, it is only a label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance.

Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?

No, I/me doesn't have any choice. Surrouding is just appearing or black is appearing and there is no choosing.

Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?

Same answer, no choice.

Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?

Of course not. It is just happening if it is happening.

Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?

No. There is no me who can choose.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing, no-one is doing the choosing.

Love, Sanna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Sanna,

Nice LOOKING!

It all seems very clear to you that there is no chooser, decider, controller or doer.
Do you have any questions so far?



Let's move on to have a look at the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay
xx

[Mysterybox]

Hello Kay,

Though questions again, thank you! :)

It all seems very clear to you that there is no chooser, decider, controller or doer.
Do you have any questions so far?

Yes, it seems quite clear, feeling more distant regarding everyday activities, not me doing but things just happening. No questions at the moment but I will let you know when something comes up.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Body feels non-existing or free-from-boundaries and there is not knowing how tall the body is.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Same here, no sensation about the weight/volume.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No. Shape and form are only colours and sensations in AE.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No boundaries in AE. Body and clothing are just labels.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Same answer here.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?

No inside/outside. Everything just is.

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

Same as previous.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It refers to a thought about the label 'body'.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It is colours and sensations.

Love, Sanna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Sanna,

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It is colours and sensations.

The actual experience of the body is thought. Colour and sensations are not the AE of the body...it is only thought that says they are. Without thought, all that is appearing is colour and sensation.



Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love, Kay
xx

[Mysterybox]

Hello Kay,

I only had time to do the exercise once, day has been busy..

But lets see, or have a LOOK :)

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

It is only thoughts and suggest that there is a connection.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Even though I know that there is no connection between the felt sensations and the image, I still feel this hard to swallow. This inner fight is going on: I/me doesn't want to let go so easily...

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

This is somehow easier to see, that there is only thoughts suggesting that the hand is moving. Wonder why is it so (compared to the previous when looking at the mirror)..

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

No, it is just a thought that it is "me" or "my body".

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

No, the image just is, it doesn't suggest anything.

Or are there only colours and shapes?

Yes, the image is just colours and shapes.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

No knowledge about the legs, only thoughts and mental images.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

No.

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Yes.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Only thoughts about a "body".

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

I would say no, because "walking" is a label for a thought "walking". Not quite sure about this though, didn't get clear "looking" of this.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

The latter one: the room is only a label for an image and the sensations appear without any location.

Love, Sanna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Sanna,

If you don’t have time to do the exercises in depth…that is okay, just let me know that you are taking extra time.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Even though I know that there is no connection between the felt sensations and the image, I still feel this hard to swallow. This inner fight is going on: I/me doesn't want to let go so easily...

When you think you find "resistance", try to define what it is that is being "resisted", and what it is that is doing the "resisting".

When you are looking in the mirror…what is the AE? Is there a body there or is there colour and thoughts about a body? And if there is only AE of colour, then can sensation come from colour?

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

This is somehow easier to see, that there is only thoughts suggesting that the hand is moving. Wonder why is it so (compared to the previous when looking at the mirror)..

Because normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand), but as you noticed it is only a mental construct that links them.

So, let’s look at this a little more.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Try this exercise with the following as well
- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

Spend some time doing this and report back on what you found.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

I would say no, because "walking" is a label for a thought "walking". Not quite sure about this though, didn't get clear "looking" of this.

Can you have a careful LOOK at this and let me know if such a thing as ‘walking’ can be found.

You're doing a great job of LOOKING...thank you Sanna!

Love, Kay
xx

[Mysterybox]

Dear Kay,

I need an extra day to do the exercises so I will get back to tomorrow.

Love, S

[forgetmenot]

Thank you for letting me know, Sanna!

K
xx

[Mysterybox]

Dear Kay,

Thank you for your guidance! I appreciate it very much.

Ok, here we go...

When you are looking in the mirror…what is the AE? Is there a body there or is there colour and thoughts about a body? And if there is only AE of colour, then can sensation come from colour?

AE is colour and thoughts about a body. No, sensation can not come from the colour. Like in the next exercise..

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, this exercise pointed that very clearly. Good exercise!

Spend some time doing this and report back on what you found.

This point is clear now: sensation doesn't come from the "visual sight" and vice versa.

Can you have a careful LOOK at this and let me know if such a thing as ‘walking’ can be found.

No, walking is just a label for a thought. No walking can be found in AE.

Hugs, Sanna