The one who's looking in to the world

[itsme]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand from the forum that the self I experience is not a real entity. There is no real person experiencing an separate outside world.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would love to find out for myself if this is true. I find it really fascinating and somewhere i think those guy's are on to something. So i expect to find out for "myself" if this is true or not. I read the ebook of Goran Backlund and find it inspiring to look at the world from "Direct Experience".

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect from guiding that the guide will be my .... guide ... in exploring this and help me get to the bottom of this. I expect him/her to help me deconstruct me experience. For now it seems i look from my eye's into the world seeming that there is me and the other, me and the world. I Hope the guide will look with me at this and help me find out.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have not much experience in non duality. I read the Ebook "Refuting the External World" from Goran Backlund. I did read Byron Katie but that is more inquiring in daily "human" stuff. I also did a 10 day vipassana retreat Goenka style.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Flicki]

Hi there!

My name is Christina and I can be your guide if you're ok with that. Should I call you 'itsme' or do you prefer another name?

I suppose you have read the disclaimer (if not please do so!) and know how this place works. Just in case a short recap of the main rules:

- Please write every day. If you can't write much, please still quickly say hi and that you're still there or something. This is necessary to get and keep a bit of momentum, which again is necessary for the process.
- Please write as honestly as you possibly can. This is not about ideas, concepts and theories. What is really important for this process is that you start at the stage before conceptualisation, so to say. Always look at your direct experience - that is what you can see, hear, smell, feel or taste (even though it's unlikely smell or taste will get you very far in this process, but they are still part of your experience). You will notice that thoughts rush through, too. We will also look at them, but maybe not from the perspective you are used to.
- For the time being, please leave all books, blogs, websites, etc. concerning topics like non-duality aside. I wish to hear what you experience, not what you think that other people think you experience... you get the picture. ;-) Concepts always lead away from experience. You can see this process as learning to simplify your life. Please don't forget. This is about you, not about anybody else. Nobody else can do the looking for you!
- On a more practical level: Please get acquainted with the quoting function. Quoting relevant passages is quite helpful in order to keep an overview in our conversation.
- It is useful to have a look at the FAQ. You might consider doing that.

Let's start!

You write in the introduction

So i expect to find out for "myself" if this is true or not.

What do you mean by 'I' and 'myself'? Can you explain from direct experience what they are? If I asked you to point at 'I', where would you point?

So far,
Christina

[itsme]

My name is Christina and I can be your guide if you're ok with that. Should I call you 'itsme' or do you prefer another name?

Hello Christina!
Thank you for guiding me!

You can call me John.

I suppose you have read the disclaimer

Yes, read it, and agreed. :)

You write in the introduction

So i expect to find out for "myself" if this is true or not.

What do you mean by 'I' and 'myself'? Can you explain from direct experience what they are? If I asked you to point at 'I', where would you point?

Well of course it is a language and communication thing. But it is good to really think about this, what do i actually mean with me, myself? There is this Identity where i refer to as me and I. It is an identity i live as and other people refer to. So there is this person or identity that would love to find out if he is a real person or only a set of sensations, thoughts, color ...
When i have to point to this I a point with my vinger to my chest.

You want me to explain in Direct Experience who this "I" and "myself" actually is. So sitting here i feel sensations, images of computer screen, window, chest, arms, table, hearing sounds outside. Thoughts thinking that i am apparently the one noticing all these things. Hands placing underneath my head, warmth sensations of my hand, pleasant. Thoughts, ...

[Flicki]

Hi John!

Thanks for your reply, acknowledging the disclaimer and learning to quote so quickly. :-)

Well of course it is a language and communication thing.

True. The question is, though: is it just that or is there more to it?

There is this Identity where i refer to as me and I. It is an identity i live as and other people refer to. So there is this person or identity that would love to find out if he is a real person or only a set of sensations, thoughts, color ...

What is it that makes a real person, as opposed to 'a set of sensations, thoughts, color'? I hope this isn't too far fetched, but do you believe that in case you find out that there is nothing but sensation and thoughts without anyone owning them, you stop being a real person? What DO you expect from this process?

When i have to point to this I a point with my vinger to my chest.

How come? Are you the chest? Are you in the chest? Why the chest?

You want me to explain in Direct Experience who this "I" and "myself" actually is. So sitting here i feel sensations, images of computer screen, window, chest, arms, table, hearing sounds outside. Thoughts thinking that i am apparently the one noticing all these things. Hands placing underneath my head, warmth sensations of my hand, pleasant. Thoughts, ...

Yes, great! You pretty much got what direct experience means. Would you care to do a little experiment? Please take two pieces of paper and a pen or pencil and try the following: Follow what's going on the way you just did in the above paragraph, but this time, be careful to sort your experience. On the first sheet of paper, write down the experience from the 'I' perspective as you started out when you wrote 'So sitting here I feel sensations'. Go on like that. When you have finished the first page, try to just tell your experience as you did later in that paragraph, but leave out the 'me' completely, like: 'Hands placing underneath the head, warmth sensations in the hand'. When you are done, please tell me what it was like for you! :-)

So far,
Christina

[itsme]

There is this Identity where i refer to as me and I. It is an identity i live as and other people refer to. So there is this person or identity that would love to find out if he is a real person or only a set of sensations, thoughts, color ...

What is it that makes a real person, as opposed to 'a set of sensations, thoughts, color'? I hope this isn't too far fetched, but do you believe that in case you find out that there is nothing but sensation and thoughts without anyone owning them, you stop being a real person? What DO you expect from this process?

Good question!
The thing is that i can see that in Direct Experience and removing the story line or words, labels from experience there is only meaning less free floating thoughts, sensations, smell, color and sound.

But there is still John going on. And it is perceived as a real person, a real guy. So in these words i do read expectations. So what is that?

I am expecting that this John will still be there. No changing there. The content will be as it ever was even though i think that how “i" will perceive the “world” could be different / evolve to seeing what is really there; Free floating sensations, not getting attached to the thought content, knowing on a deep, deep level that this all is non existent. A shift in perspective.

I do recognize that the above is a story, thought content though.

When i have to point to this I a point with my vinger to my chest.

How come? Are you the chest? Are you in the chest? Why the chest?

It is referring to the body. “my body”. Funny because it is done immediately after the question with absolute confidence. John is this body. Not sure why the chest. I can see that there are more gestures to point to me but the most are pointing to the chest or waving at the chest area.

When i ask myself where i am it is more in my head at eye level. With the notion that that’s because of the looking that seems to come from my head / out of my head. apparently there is a big deal of labeling seeing as me/I.

You want me to explain in Direct Experience who this "I" and "myself" actually is. So sitting here i feel sensations, images of computer screen, window, chest, arms, table, hearing sounds outside. Thoughts thinking that i am apparently the one noticing all these things. Hands placing underneath my head, warmth sensations of my hand, pleasant. Thoughts, ...

Yes, great! You pretty much got what direct experience means. Would you care to do a little experiment? Please take two pieces of paper and a pen or pencil and try the following: Follow what's going on the way you just did in the above paragraph, but this time, be careful to sort your experience. On the first sheet of paper, write down the experience from the 'I' perspective as you started out when you wrote 'So sitting here I feel sensations'. Go on like that. When you have finished the first page, try to just tell your experience as you did later in that paragraph, but leave out the 'me' completely, like: 'Hands placing underneath the head, warmth sensations in the hand'. When you are done, please tell me what it was like for you! :-)

I like looking at stuff without the added label of an I it is a bit of a Noting meditation where you note only the “first tier” experience. What i noticed is that this added I is not needed to be included to the story what is happening but is also something that is easily added as we are so used to talk with this I and me.

I also noticed some “boredom” maybe an attachment to the story and feeling that without the story there is not much “fun to it"

[Flicki]

Hi John!

The thing is that i can see that in Direct Experience and removing the story line or words, labels from experience there is only meaning less free floating thoughts, sensations, smell, color and sound.

If that is the case, what are we doing here? Can you SEE this or can you IMAGINE it? Please be honest!

But there is still John going on. And it is perceived as a real person, a real guy. So in these words i do read expectations. So what is that?

You did not really answer my question. What is the difference between a 'real person' and a set of thoughts, sensations, etc.?

It is referring to the body. “my body”. Funny because it is done immediately after the question with absolute confidence. John is this body. Not sure why the chest. I can see that there are more gestures to point to me but the most are pointing to the chest or waving at the chest area. When i ask myself where i am it is more in my head at eye level. With the notion that that’s because of the looking that seems to come from my head / out of my head. apparently there is a big deal of labeling seeing as me/I.

Please look again. WHAT IS THERE that is referred to as 'John'? Where exactly in the body is 'John'? Please, this time, be very strict with yourself to just stay with direct experience. Don't overthink. Where is this 'John'?

I like looking at stuff without the added label of an I it is a bit of a Noting meditation where you note only the “first tier” experience. What i noticed is that this added I is not needed to be included to the story what is happening but is also something that is easily added as we are so used to talk with this I and me.

I also noticed some “boredom” maybe an attachment to the story and feeling that without the story there is not much “fun to it"

From your description, I'm not sure if you really DID the exercise or if you THOUGHT about it. Your thoughts also contradict each other. You start off by saying you 'like looking at stuff without the added label of an I', then you talk about boredom and 'attachment to the story' and lack of fun. What is your experience, though, as opposed to interpretation of experience? There is no one here you need to convince or impress. Getting caught up in thought and concepts only makes the process very long-winded and unnecessarily difficult. Stay simple and look again!

So far,
Christina

[itsme]

Hi John!

The thing is that i can see that in Direct Experience and removing the story line or words, labels from experience there is only meaning less free floating thoughts, sensations, smell, color and sound.

If that is the case, what are we doing here? Can you SEE this or can you IMAGINE it? Please be honest!

Thanks Christina for questioning this.
I am not really sure if it is imagination. In a way it surly is because it is not my standard way of seeing. When i look around i do not see only “meaningless” thoughts, sensations, smell, color and sound. But i can break experience down and recognize that for instance the bottle in front of me is without the name bottle a shape and color. further looking i can even break it down more by questioning and notice that this shape consists of different “shades” of color. Also when not really focusing on the objects, meaning of objects en space i can “see” that depth is also made up.

But this is not my default way of seeing. I have to “do” this type of looking at things. So some form of imagination, deconstructing is going on.

I feel that this is an important question you ask. I would love to hear from you that what i try to do, think i do is the right way, that this is the way to deconstruct and question my experience. I understand that this is quite important.

But there is still John going on. And it is perceived as a real person, a real guy. So in these words i do read expectations. So what is that?

You did not really answer my question. What is the difference between a 'real person' and a set of thoughts, sensations, etc.?

The difference is that a ‘real’ person would be something that is something really living, with choice, independent. A set of thoughts and sensations are not independent, living.

Christina, i pick up the other questions later on in the day.
I Go on Holliday from the 10th of juli and i have planned to use it to have a serious look at this "separate self".

For now two more day's working and need to get stuff done so i have my hands free.
So bare with me.

With a thankful hart, John.

[Flicki]

Hi John!

Thanks for the quick reply.

I feel that this is an important question you ask. I would love to hear from you that what i try to do, think i do is the right way, that this is the way to deconstruct and question my experience. I understand that this is quite important.

I'm not sure that the experiences you describe are really a 'deconstruction', because they are always there before the construction starts. But if the construing loosens, that is a good sign that you're headed into the 'right' direction. And considering how much time you have spent in those thoughts, probably without questioning them, it is no wonder that direct experience is not your 'default way of seeing'. Whatever you do regularly becomes a habit. Of course you can make staying with experience without construing a habit, too. Or at least more of a habit than it used to be. That can be quite helpful in life!

I am not really sure if it is imagination. In a way it surly is because it is not my standard way of seeing. When i look around i do not see only “meaningless” thoughts, sensations, smell, color and sound. But i can break experience down and recognize that for instance the bottle in front of me is without the name bottle a shape and color. further looking i can even break it down more by questioning and notice that this shape consists of different “shades” of color. Also when not really focusing on the objects, meaning of objects en space i can “see” that depth is also made up.

Well, there is a slight difference between the bottle you describe and the self. You are absolutely right: You cognize the bottle after a certain shape and maybe colour are seen, when touched, the surface is recognised as cooler than the body, harder than the fingers. Maybe there is a smell or a taste of remnants of a liquid in there, if something is flipped against it - a fingernail, another object - a very distinct sound can be heard. All of this 'proves' to you that there is a bottle. You find proof for the thought 'This is a bottle'. But what about the self? Can you touch it, feel it, smell or taste it? Can you see a self? Can you think a self? How is a self different from a bottle? Please check this really closely before you answer to this - it's absolutely crucial!

You did not really answer my question. What is the difference between a 'real person' and a set of thoughts, sensations, etc.?
[/quote]

The difference is that a ‘real’ person would be something that is something really living, with choice, independent. A set of thoughts and sensations are not independent, living.[/quote]

Take a look around, please: Aren't trees and plants and mushrooms alive? Aren't animals alive? They all have a sense of the world, according to their physical bodies and resulting abilities. They also seem to have choices - a cow can go right or left, ivy can go up this or that tree, a hen can pick a corn or leave it. (We will have to look at 'choices' or 'free will' a bit closer at some point though... the observation that there seems to be choice does not yet answer the question what it is that chooses! But please let's do that a little later...) And independence... nobody, no tree, no plant, no animal, can survive independently. A tree, for example, needs water and soil and sun. Do you see independence there? Just some food for thought... .

I Go on Holliday from the 10th of juli and i have planned to use it to have a serious look at this "separate self".

Thanks for letting me know! I will also be on holiday at the end of next week. I might be able to go online occasionally during the first week, but not during the second. Would you like to get a bit of 'homework' for some more exploration during that time?

I'll still wait for the second part of your reply. :-)

So far,
Christina

[itsme]

Hello Christina,

I did not found a chance to send a new reply the last couple of day's.
Sorry for that! I thought it was possible but it was more busy as i anticipated.

I did look at what this "I" really is at the little free moments in the day. Turns out that that is not that easily explained. Witch is a funny thing. Off course i could define myself as this or that person with this or that personality, job, family, etc. But In direct experience, what is it.

We are now settled in our vacation home and bought our wifi code so i am able to pick things up again.

I do love some homework from you to have a look at.

I als will answer the open questions later today but wanted to let you know that i am back on track :)

John.

[Flicki]

Hi John!

Thanks for the message! I'm still here & basically at your service until Friday. Will put some exercises together for you for now and otherwise wait for your reply to the last mail! :-)

Enjoy your vacation!

C.

[Flicki]

Hello John,

As I haven't heard back from you, I suppose your vacation keeps you more busy than you thought! :-) I'm almost off to mine now. I might be online occasionally next week and will be for sure on Saturday morning (and happy to write then, too), but definitely not the week after that.

You said you wanted some homework, but the fact that you still haven't replied to my questions from more than a week ago makes this a little difficult. Therefore I suggest that you just go on looking if you can find a self. And start with the exercise and questions you already have. Please occasionally check in here, too, even while I'm away, so that I can see how you're doing when I do get the chance to go online.

At the end of the month will be a good time for a new focused start into this if you're game...

So far, have a good week!
Christina