Hi Ratnapani
Thank you for the questions. I will answer them. I need an other day. My mother passed away last night. I will get back to you.
All the best
Lin
All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Dearest Lin,
I am so sorry for your loss.
Take all the time you need.
With metta,
Ratnapani
I am so sorry for your loss.
Take all the time you need.
With metta,
Ratnapani
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
Thank you for condolences. My mother was 86 years old, she became sick and died. I miss her of course but it is also relieving that she don't have to suffer anymore. I wish her a safe and happy passing.
Here comes the questions with my answers.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
-No there isn't a separate 'self' anywhere. Except because of illusion or concept, in use of language and communication, otherwise no.
There used to be a believed separate 'self' before, but only as a illusion, that 'I' used to believe was true.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
-The illusion of a separate self is when someone believe there to be a 'entity' of an unchanging separate self within their view of who 'they are'. They believe that 'They' are in charge, having control. So did I too believe.
I think my illusion of an 'I' builds up because of the senses and memory-building. When I'm thinking with words, I have a memory of my voice. My eyes are constantly sending signals and likewise with other the senses. I get memories in form of pictures that 'I' can see with 'my inner eye'. With memory we learn to recognize all of this to be 'I' 'me' or 'self'. That completes the illusion.
My experience after this inquiry is that there isn't a separate 'self' (I or me) anywhere to be found. The 'self', (I/me) is just a thought, an illusion. I'll explain how I come to see that, while answering the following questions.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
-It feels a bit confusing because the 'I' is still in use, as a concept, with spoken words.
The difference is that before this inquiry I used to believed that 'I' was the one thinking thoughts. But now, I see that 'I' is a thought and thoughts happens. With this insight, 'I feel' more integrated.
4) What was crucial in making you look and really see ?
-It happened in steps. First, I had a notion that everything was just awareness. That slipped away for a while. Then I saw that I separated the believed 'I', from the rest of the thoughts, as in 'there is a me thinking thoughts' and that I didn't have to do that. The 'I' is to be included in the rest of the 'thinking' where it belongs. That is how the 'I' become a thought. Some days later I did the body exercise. The question 'can I sense pressure? came up. I saw that the names that were given to different events and sensations in the body didn't fit together, or match, with the sensation. And all I could see was different sensations, no matter which 'name' I used, 'vibrations, pulsating, tingle' and so on. That made me see that the same goes for the concept of 'I'. There couldn't be found an 'I' either because there was nothing to be named 'I', 'me' or 'self'.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
-They are all conceptions as I see them. I see that most of them comes together with actions and habits. Actions seam to happen without thinking. Decisions are made without a 'me'. One example of this is the exercise with the two drinks, when I watch the arm moving, and reaching for the glass. 'I' didn't think 'move the arm', it happened. I don't make choices because there is no 'I', choices happens. Actions happens without the illusion of 'me'. In the direct experience I couldn't detect what made things happen, they happened.
I don't see that there is anyone 'I' to be responsible for actions and habits. In the direct experience 'I' see the different senses, and sense bodily sensations. I experienced that habit are very easy to build up. In fact it happens after just one time. I learned that as well from the exercise with the drinks. Choice, free will and control also became illusions in the same exercise, 'I' didn't choose because there is no ''I'. If there was an 'I' and free will, any glass could have been picked. But habitually (after one time) the same glass was picked.
6) Anything to add?
It feels like this insight is still new and needs to be more strongly integrated. How do I do this? I would be grateful if I could have some advise on this or more guidance if you think that is needed.
I have learned that I don't know where to draw the line, between writing about and trying to explain my bare experience, on the one hand, and concepts and theory, on the other hand. My habit is to function as a so called head-person and I use a lot of metaphors constructed out of pictures in my speaking and in my exploring. Obviously I can't use words without getting into conceptual thinking which have made things hard for both of us. I'm sorry for that. It is was not intentional.
All the very best
Lin
Thank you for condolences. My mother was 86 years old, she became sick and died. I miss her of course but it is also relieving that she don't have to suffer anymore. I wish her a safe and happy passing.
Here comes the questions with my answers.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
-No there isn't a separate 'self' anywhere. Except because of illusion or concept, in use of language and communication, otherwise no.
There used to be a believed separate 'self' before, but only as a illusion, that 'I' used to believe was true.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
-The illusion of a separate self is when someone believe there to be a 'entity' of an unchanging separate self within their view of who 'they are'. They believe that 'They' are in charge, having control. So did I too believe.
I think my illusion of an 'I' builds up because of the senses and memory-building. When I'm thinking with words, I have a memory of my voice. My eyes are constantly sending signals and likewise with other the senses. I get memories in form of pictures that 'I' can see with 'my inner eye'. With memory we learn to recognize all of this to be 'I' 'me' or 'self'. That completes the illusion.
My experience after this inquiry is that there isn't a separate 'self' (I or me) anywhere to be found. The 'self', (I/me) is just a thought, an illusion. I'll explain how I come to see that, while answering the following questions.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
-It feels a bit confusing because the 'I' is still in use, as a concept, with spoken words.
The difference is that before this inquiry I used to believed that 'I' was the one thinking thoughts. But now, I see that 'I' is a thought and thoughts happens. With this insight, 'I feel' more integrated.
4) What was crucial in making you look and really see ?
-It happened in steps. First, I had a notion that everything was just awareness. That slipped away for a while. Then I saw that I separated the believed 'I', from the rest of the thoughts, as in 'there is a me thinking thoughts' and that I didn't have to do that. The 'I' is to be included in the rest of the 'thinking' where it belongs. That is how the 'I' become a thought. Some days later I did the body exercise. The question 'can I sense pressure? came up. I saw that the names that were given to different events and sensations in the body didn't fit together, or match, with the sensation. And all I could see was different sensations, no matter which 'name' I used, 'vibrations, pulsating, tingle' and so on. That made me see that the same goes for the concept of 'I'. There couldn't be found an 'I' either because there was nothing to be named 'I', 'me' or 'self'.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
-They are all conceptions as I see them. I see that most of them comes together with actions and habits. Actions seam to happen without thinking. Decisions are made without a 'me'. One example of this is the exercise with the two drinks, when I watch the arm moving, and reaching for the glass. 'I' didn't think 'move the arm', it happened. I don't make choices because there is no 'I', choices happens. Actions happens without the illusion of 'me'. In the direct experience I couldn't detect what made things happen, they happened.
I don't see that there is anyone 'I' to be responsible for actions and habits. In the direct experience 'I' see the different senses, and sense bodily sensations. I experienced that habit are very easy to build up. In fact it happens after just one time. I learned that as well from the exercise with the drinks. Choice, free will and control also became illusions in the same exercise, 'I' didn't choose because there is no ''I'. If there was an 'I' and free will, any glass could have been picked. But habitually (after one time) the same glass was picked.
6) Anything to add?
It feels like this insight is still new and needs to be more strongly integrated. How do I do this? I would be grateful if I could have some advise on this or more guidance if you think that is needed.
I have learned that I don't know where to draw the line, between writing about and trying to explain my bare experience, on the one hand, and concepts and theory, on the other hand. My habit is to function as a so called head-person and I use a lot of metaphors constructed out of pictures in my speaking and in my exploring. Obviously I can't use words without getting into conceptual thinking which have made things hard for both of us. I'm sorry for that. It is was not intentional.
All the very best
Lin
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Lin,
I know the feeling, my father died after being seriously ill at that age. He was clear in his mind that he wanted to go and although I felt very sad I could only wish him well.
Your answers to the questions are more clear to me than most of what has gone before !
We have had fun with language. Especially unclear for me has been 'concepts', because a concept can be undone by thought while an 'illusion' is SEEN to be what it is entirely outside of usual mental activity and disappears. Although I know what you mean at the same time because illusions can take the form of concepts.
I'll write more when I have had time to absorb what you have written but meanwhile :
Meanwhile don't worry about the little word 'I', there are no practical alternatives. you can keep looking to see what it means to you now.
There will continue to be a 'sense of self' in emotions particularly, otherwise known as 'selfing'
Again it is good to look and see if there is 'anything' in fact 'behind' this. Anyone 'doing' this. ( I hope that use of language is clear!)
The difference between bare experience and concepts and theory is probably the most important thing to see in the path to the 'cessation of suffering.'
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.
I know the feeling, my father died after being seriously ill at that age. He was clear in his mind that he wanted to go and although I felt very sad I could only wish him well.
Your answers to the questions are more clear to me than most of what has gone before !
We have had fun with language. Especially unclear for me has been 'concepts', because a concept can be undone by thought while an 'illusion' is SEEN to be what it is entirely outside of usual mental activity and disappears. Although I know what you mean at the same time because illusions can take the form of concepts.
I'll write more when I have had time to absorb what you have written but meanwhile :
There are groups connected with LU and others that can help with integration and further looking.It feels like this insight is still new and needs to be more strongly integrated. How do I do this? I would be grateful if I could have some advise on this or more guidance if you think that is needed.
Meanwhile don't worry about the little word 'I', there are no practical alternatives. you can keep looking to see what it means to you now.
There will continue to be a 'sense of self' in emotions particularly, otherwise known as 'selfing'
Again it is good to look and see if there is 'anything' in fact 'behind' this. Anyone 'doing' this. ( I hope that use of language is clear!)
The difference between bare experience and concepts and theory is probably the most important thing to see in the path to the 'cessation of suffering.'
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
Yes please, do read and digest. You are welcome to send me questions if you want me to clarify something. I'll keep on looking and take care of my experience so far. To me concept is a 'name' put upon things and events and ideas.
Looking forward to hear from you again.
Sorry also for your loss if your father.
All the best
Lin
Yes please, do read and digest. You are welcome to send me questions if you want me to clarify something. I'll keep on looking and take care of my experience so far. To me concept is a 'name' put upon things and events and ideas.
Looking forward to hear from you again.
Sorry also for your loss if your father.
All the best
Lin
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Lin,
I have a few things I'd like you to clarify for me.
Do you fear that if you use the term 'I' enough the illusion will return ?
.
.
Did you mean the second option ?
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
I have a few things I'd like you to clarify for me.
Can you describe how this is confusing you ?-It feels a bit confusing because the 'I' is still in use, as a concept, with spoken words.
Do you fear that if you use the term 'I' enough the illusion will return ?
.
Would you tell me more about how 'integrated' feels ?With this insight, 'I feel' more integrated.
.
This is just about language! Slipped away for a while suggests it came back. ......after a while suggests it was gone. English lessons for no extra charge. :)First, I had a notion that everything was just awareness. That slipped away for a while.
Did you mean the second option ?
Like I said earlier that is such a great thing to see.I have learned that I don't know where to draw the line, between writing about and trying to explain my bare experience, on the one hand, and concepts and theory, on the other hand
I never thought it was and we got it sorted in the end.I'm sorry for that. It is was not intentional.
I'll guess this is language again but is there 'something' that you 'have' that you need to take care of ?I'll keep on looking and take care of my experience so far.
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
Yes I will try to clarify.
(I just figured out how to use the quote-function on my phone. Yay :)
•This is going to be language again. I'm thinking a lot about the exercises that I did. They are good and they are on my mind frequently. Still looking and exploring. When I say a sentence, that have got 'I' in it. It fells like the word 'I' don't entirely have the same meaning anymore. Before this, the 'I' was more pervasive and in the center because I believed it. Now it feels like a thought, a mind thing (which it is). It is like, I'm not, or don't have to, listen to it. It is just a thought.
•Yes, maybe I am afraid that the illusion will come back or that I will start to believe it and I will turn this experience into something intellectual. I did believe that illusion for a very long time, you know. Habits are strong.
Best Wishes,
Lin
Yes I will try to clarify.
(I just figured out how to use the quote-function on my phone. Yay :)
It feels a bit confusing because the 'I' is still in use, as a concept, with spoken words.""
"Can you describe how this is confusing you ?
Do you fear that if you use the term 'I' enough the illusion will return ?"
•This is going to be language again. I'm thinking a lot about the exercises that I did. They are good and they are on my mind frequently. Still looking and exploring. When I say a sentence, that have got 'I' in it. It fells like the word 'I' don't entirely have the same meaning anymore. Before this, the 'I' was more pervasive and in the center because I believed it. Now it feels like a thought, a mind thing (which it is). It is like, I'm not, or don't have to, listen to it. It is just a thought.
•Yes, maybe I am afraid that the illusion will come back or that I will start to believe it and I will turn this experience into something intellectual. I did believe that illusion for a very long time, you know. Habits are strong.
Before, there was 'Me and my body" now it feel more like a "body functioning with all its actions, thoughts and habits."With this insight, 'I feel' more integrated.""
"Would you tell me more about how 'integrated' feels ?"
•Haha! No, sorry, I forgot to continue that thread, with "then it came back when the question about pressure came up. And I saw that behind every sensation there was just awareness. (No, I haven't smoked anything) And I guess I loose the awareness when I am hooked in my head, getting teoretical about things.First, I had a notion that everything was just awareness. That slipped away for a while.""
"This is just about language! Slipped away for a while suggests it came back. ......after a while suggests it was gone. English lessons for no extra charge. :)
Did you mean the second option ?"
Yes, but it didn't change anything. Words are still words and descriptions and explanations needs words. ;)I have learned that I don't know where to draw the line, between writing about and trying to explain my bare experience, on the one hand, and concepts and theory, on the other hand""
"Like I said earlier that is such a great thing to see."
Yes, thank you.I'm sorry for that. It is was not intentional. ""
"I never thought it was and we got it sorted in the end."
•No it is not something that I have but something that I've lost. I got a space and that space needs to be taken care of so that I don't grasp for new things.I'll keep on looking and take care of my experience so far.""
"I'll guess this is language again but is there 'something' that you 'have' that you need to take care of ?
Best Wishes,
Lin
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Lin,
Nice !
The next step is to show our thread to other guides and see if they have any questions, is that ok by you ?
By the way what is your first language ?
I have been assuming Lin designates female, am I right? Not that it matters!
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
Nice !
The next step is to show our thread to other guides and see if they have any questions, is that ok by you ?
By the way what is your first language ?
I have been assuming Lin designates female, am I right? Not that it matters!
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
My first language is Swedish. I'm a woman 60 years ocg a gfr mitra 'on paus'. My name is Caroline. Nice to meat you :)
And yes it feels ok, I guss
Are you a friend of Tejananda?! ;)
My regards and thank you
Caroline
My first language is Swedish. I'm a woman 60 years ocg a gfr mitra 'on paus'. My name is Caroline. Nice to meat you :)
And yes it feels ok, I guss
Are you a friend of Tejananda?! ;)
My regards and thank you
Caroline
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Caroline,
Pleased to meet you indeed.
I've tried to change my LU name to not be so obviously Trirat ! No luck so far.
It can be a bit of a liability.
Yes I know Tejananda, I live a few miles from Vajraloka and had lunch with him yesterday.
He got me started 'looking' a few years ago with 'simply being' retreats.
We could say more later by email if that is appropriate.
Your welcome,
All the best,
Ratnapani.
Pleased to meet you indeed.
I've tried to change my LU name to not be so obviously Trirat ! No luck so far.
It can be a bit of a liability.
Yes I know Tejananda, I live a few miles from Vajraloka and had lunch with him yesterday.
He got me started 'looking' a few years ago with 'simply being' retreats.
We could say more later by email if that is appropriate.
Your welcome,
All the best,
Ratnapani.
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
:) That is appropriate. As fellow braking the ten fetters 'mates'. :)
Lin
:) That is appropriate. As fellow braking the ten fetters 'mates'. :)
Lin
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Lin,
I have a couple of questions from another guide.
1 )Can you please explain the best as you can, in your own words, what you do, when you want to check what is here, that lets you know you are looking instead of thinking?
2)What do you see, at this very moment, right now, when you are looking at what is here ?
Please ask if the questions are not clear to you.
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
I have a couple of questions from another guide.
1 )Can you please explain the best as you can, in your own words, what you do, when you want to check what is here, that lets you know you are looking instead of thinking?
2)What do you see, at this very moment, right now, when you are looking at what is here ?
Please ask if the questions are not clear to you.
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
Could you please unfold the questions a bit.
They are a bit unclear to me.
:)
Lin
Could you please unfold the questions a bit.
They are a bit unclear to me.
:)
Lin
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Lin,
Ok I'll try, this will take another cup of tea !
1 ) When looking at bodily experience for instance - you are 'checking' what is 'here' in direct experience. Can you describe 'what you do' - perhaps what attitude you take - so that you know you are 'looking' and not thinking about what you might be
experiencing ?
2) I presume this is trying to clarify the same area.
When you look right now. What do you 'see' in direct experience ? Perhaps, 'what is Known to be here'? In direct experience.
Look where ? I suppose that is up to you !
I hope that helps. It had me guessing for a while!
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
Ok I'll try, this will take another cup of tea !
1 ) When looking at bodily experience for instance - you are 'checking' what is 'here' in direct experience. Can you describe 'what you do' - perhaps what attitude you take - so that you know you are 'looking' and not thinking about what you might be
experiencing ?
2) I presume this is trying to clarify the same area.
When you look right now. What do you 'see' in direct experience ? Perhaps, 'what is Known to be here'? In direct experience.
Look where ? I suppose that is up to you !
I hope that helps. It had me guessing for a while!
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani
Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.
Hi Ratnapani
Thank you. That's what I thought. But I become unsure of what was meant.
Answers are coming.
:)
Lin
Thank you. That's what I thought. But I become unsure of what was meant.
Answers are coming.
:)
Lin
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