Who wants to walk me through the process?

[mark_tywharton]

The thing that the thought and word "I" points to in thought and language, does it exist as a self in reality?

Yes and no

If "I" don't go to the shop? what goes there?

The 'Mark' for me and the 'Mark' for other people is clearly different

Does a self exist, Mark?

My Self as in the Self that belongs to me?

Do you exist?

I don't know

[Damon Kamda]

My Self as in the Self that belongs to me?

....

Wow. Now I am getting confused.

Let's clarify some stuff before going on.

What do you mean by Self?
What do you mean by I/me?

[mark_tywharton]

Wow. Now I am getting confused.

Let's clarify some stuff before going on.

What do you mean by Self?

It depends on the context, point of view,or reference point.

And you keep asking questions from different contexts, points of view or reference point.

As a generalisation...

Self arises at the level of experience such that if I look at a tree, the experience of the tree is with the tree and with my perception and with the language of tree.

So it could be that Self arises at the level of tree. For each and every person experiencing the tree, there will be a different tree. So by Self I mean unique set of beliefs, experience and perception.

It includes the body, mind and external universe or anything that comes into my individual awareness.

So it can be said that I am my universe and everything that arises here is me.

That is what I mean by self.

A kind of personal illusion of everything.

EXPERIENCE?

What do you mean by I/me?

An individual and separate system which makes apparent choices which alter the perception and reality of everything that arises here in perceived space.

AWARENESS?

[Damon Kamda]

Ok, so the Self is each one's unique experience, "a kind of personal illusion of everything". I can go along with that.

An individual and separate system which makes apparent choices which alter the perception and reality of everything that arises here in perceived space

It is this we are trying to look at. The "individual and separate system". Is it there? Is there someone who OWNS the Self, to whom the Self belong? Someone who IS the Self?

Like in your sentence "the Self that belongs to me"? I understand what you mean by Self in that sentence. The me however, that is the self the absence of which we are pointing to here.

So, before we're off into theoryland again, make it practical, down-to-earth. Look at that self, it's just a concept. Is this true?

[mark_tywharton]

Okay got it, who does this personal illusion of everything belong to?

Yes, I get that I think it is MINE

Let me look at the "me" and see if it is real (I am sure I have done this before ;-)

[Damon Kamda]

NO, more specifically: is there someone/something to whom anything belongs? An entity separate from (any) experience, event?

Not WHO does it belong to, but is there a WHO in the first place?

This has been going on and on in circles because you've never challenged the WHO to begin with. And until you do, well keep dancing this dance into eternity.

[mark_tywharton]

NO, more specifically: is there someone/something to whom anything belongs? An entity separate from (any) experience, event?

Not WHO does it belong to, but is there a WHO in the first place?

This has been going on and on in circles because you've never challenged the WHO to begin with. And until you do, well keep dancing this dance into eternity.

I have challenged the WHO but it doesn't have any specific location

Looking at it closely it seems to be behind the eyes looking out AND it is also like an armour on my chest and it is like a hand that holds the action figure Mark when I visualise Mark doing things and it is a kinaesthetic overall body response.

So how can it possibly be all those things?

Hmmmm

[mark_tywharton]

Okay that is awareness

I can put my awareness wherever I want

The "I" that is putting awareness?

Having trouble finding that...

[Damon Kamda]

Awareness exists, that is obvious.

When I tell you to focus your awareness on the keyboard, awareness goes to the keyboard, so yes, awareness can be directed to focus or unfocus, sure.

The I to whom awareness belongs, the central controller to awareness, thought, movement, action, that I, that WHO. That is the WHO that needs to be examined.

The reason you're having trouble finding that is because it is an assumption.

This can be clearly seen.
Look at experience right now. Anything. Reading the words on the screen, the words being interpreted and a response being formulated, the movement of thoughts, the hands moving towards the keyboard to type in yet another response.

In all of this movement, is there any entity above it, separate from it all, directing it, observing it, like a conductor in a symphony, a director of a movie?

[mark_tywharton]

is there any entity above it, separate from it all, directing it, observing it, like a conductor in a symphony, a director of a movie?

Surely we got this far already?

Ok, in reality as far as I can tell, the "I" is conceptual.

But I already know that - or to make it clear? awareness shows the reality of I to be invalid.

Haven't we spent some time proving that in a number of ways?

And sorry, but it's not really that liberating.

Is there a step beyond this?

[mark_tywharton]

Is there a step where we go beyond self and get liberated or is that it?

Like Buddha, or some Zen guy?

Will there be a flash of light and an Angel?

Because I already knew all this!

Maybe misery is just part of the paradigm and this is as good as it gets LOL

[Damon Kamda]

Because I already knew all this!

Yes of course. Seeing this intellectually is easy, we've covered that before.
And, as I already told you- this is not about escaping from misery. It's about clearly seeing what is real and what is not.

What would a "step beyond this" look like? We offer no cosmic downloads here, not bliss injections. Just a sobering insight into reality.

So, here's the set of questions you mentioned in the beginning.
Be 100% honest and focused as well. Write from your experience.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
3) How does it feel to be liberated?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this?

[mark_tywharton]

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

There is a physical body having an experience

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

Frustrating

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this?

Boring

[mark_tywharton]

I just had to go to the doctor with my son who is sick and I spent the journey thinking about this

I was driving and the thought 'Am I missing something' came up

And then 'How can I possibly be missing anything if awareness is all there is'?

It's still frustrating answering these questions

It's still boring

Thank you for continuing to work with me ;-)

[Damon Kamda]

Hope your son is doing well...

It's still frustrating answering these questions

It's still boring

Hey! I'm not here to provide entertainment for you. Are you here to be entertained?

Answer the fourth question in detail. Please.

How can I possibly be missing anything if awareness is all there is?

You're full of shit, Mark, and I'm getting tired of it.
You just like to play around with concepts.
"Awareness is all there is". What the hell is that about? Sounds a lot like that weasel Tolle you mentioned.
It's starting to bore me as well.

So how about you drop the nonsense for a moment and focus.

You haven't written anything here that suggests you have any clue what we're pointing to here.
So stop wasting my time and engage this seriously.

Or we're done.