Wondering if I need a guide

[nancypants11]

I stumbled on the LU website two years ago and immediately knew that "no self" was the missing piece of the puzzle. Shortly thereafter I had a number of Oneness experiences. I've been listening to the audio steadily and got the LU book over the holidays last year, but I'm feeling like the no-self thing isn't quite sticking.

I'd read if you're feeling stuck in the gate then look at your expectations. One of mine is that my mind would quiet down somewhat, and I would get less sucked into believing thoughts. When I look I can see there is no self, no thinker, but I am still feeling some level of separation, and a lot of distracting thoughts and emotions.

Thanks very much!

[Petrus]

HI Nancy,

If you like we can have a conversation in which we can look if there still are issues for you.
I will ask questions (lots of haha) and we will see what happens.
How does that sound to you?

Petrus

[nancypants11]

Hi Petrus!

Yes please, that sounds fantastic!

Nancy

[Petrus]

Hi Nancy,

Ok lets start!

By the way, I am Dutch, so English is not my first language!
What about you?

I have a couple questions about thoughts to start with:
Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Regards, Petrus

[nancypants11]

Ok lets start!

Thank you for this opportunity, Petrus! I appreciate it.

By the way, I am Dutch, so English is not my first language!
What about you?

I am American. We have a neighbor that's Dutch, she is fluent in 3 languages. I wish I knew more languages!

Where do thoughts come from?

I can't tell exactly, they just appear. They seem to originate in the middle of my head but prior to that- no idea.

Where are they going?

They disappear the same way, they just vaporize.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

For a few moments, but not for any length of time. If I bring awareness to this present moment, thoughts go away. But not for long!

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

When I look for an 'I' I can't find anything, definitely no I.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

I'm not finding a thinker either. A thinker is just a label we've assumed exists.

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yes. It's a shocking concept at first, but eventually you see that you can't find the 'I'. But the habit of labeling the aliveness feeling and claiming the thoughts as being produced by an 'I' is very strong.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

No, thought can't be controlled, and I'm not seeing an 'I' anyway haa.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No. They just happen.

Can you choose what to think?

Not for long. You can shift your awareness to something else for a short time, but that won't stop a return to whatever thinking wants to be thinking about.

Can you choose what not to think?

Haa no. That's even worse.. try not to think about a pink elephant!

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

All my lifetime conditioning says yes, but I just can't believe it anymore!

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

Ho boy. I would have said that I think thoughts, it has always been assumed, but because I can't find an 'I', it has to be that thoughts think me (into seeming existence).

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Oh that's a good one! That one took me by surprise. No it's not. Even if I can't find an 'I', that doesn't mean the 'I' thought will stop appearing. There's no control over the 'I' thought appearing or not.

[Petrus]

Hi Nancy,

They (thoughts) seem to originate in the middle of my head

Is that really so?
If there is thinking, is there experiencing a body in the same time?

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

For a few moments, but not for any length of time.

How do you such a thing? Can you teach me to do that?

If I bring awareness to this present moment, thoughts go away. But not for long!

So there is an I after all?
Who is bringing awareness to the present moment?

But the habit of labeling the aliveness feeling and claiming the thoughts as being produced by an 'I' is very strong.

Isnt that a lovely thought too?
Is there a difference between this thought and the thought: "the moon is yellow"?

Can you choose what to think?

Not for long. You can shift your awareness to something else for a short time

Is it a (separate) I that is shifting awareness?

try not to think about a pink elephant!

This is the example I use all the time! Where you got it from?

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

All my lifetime conditioning says yes, but I just can't believe it anymore!

Thinking the brain does the thinking is (scientific) knowledge, is learned/conditioned indeed.
But is it a belief it isnt true now or just seeing that 'brain' is just a concept?

Well, thank you for your willingness here!
Warm regards, Petrus

[nancypants11]

Hi Nancy,

Hi Petrus!

They (thoughts) seem to originate in the middle of my head

Is that really so?
If there is thinking, is there experiencing a body in the same time?

They seem to be mutually exclusive. When I really feel the awareness in the body then the thoughts stop, but when thoughts are rambling on then I'm not really feeling the body, I'm in my head!

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

For a few moments, but not for any length of time.
How do you such a thing? Can you teach me to do that?

Bring your awareness to the five senses and the body and the aliveness feeling, in this moment. Thought stops! But I can't stay with that for long. It's like a rubber band where awareness snaps back up into the head, back in thought. Another way, this one I found in a book: ask the question, "I wonder what my next thought will be.." and mind will go blank. :) For a few seconds. :\

If I bring awareness to this present moment, thoughts go away. But not for long!

So there is an I after all?
Who is bringing awareness to the present moment?

That's a good question! :O This one is tripping me up. It seems like an 'I' is purposefully shifting awareness, but I can't find an I. So it's thought claiming there is an 'I' that can shift awareness. No 'I', it's just happening.

But the habit of labeling the aliveness feeling and claiming the thoughts as being produced by an 'I' is very strong.

Isnt that a lovely thought too?
Is there a difference between this thought and the thought: "the moon is yellow"?

Whoa that's right, of course it's just a thought! There's no difference, except the significance that I have given it! The difference is imaginary!

Can you choose what to think?

Not for long. You can shift your awareness to something else for a short time

Is it a (separate) I that is shifting awareness?

Similar question to one above- I can't find an 'I' that's shifting awareness, it's just being labeled to seem like it. It's an illusion of control! Claiming ownership.

try not to think about a pink elephant!

This is the example I use all the time! Where you got it from?

Haa yes it's not uncommon. Something absurd that couldn't possibly exist in the physical world. :)

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

All my lifetime conditioning says yes, but I just can't believe it anymore!

Thinking the brain does the thinking is (scientific) knowledge, is learned/conditioned indeed.
But is it a belief it isnt true now or just seeing that 'brain' is just a concept?

Whoa!! :O That's mind-blowing! I'm feeling resistance on this- there is a physical brain but as far as a brain thinking the thoughts- yes perhaps that 'brain' is just a concept as well! Just a label. That certainly lightens up mind/brain! I'm not sure I've answered this one thoroughly..

Well, thank you for your willingness here!

Thank you for taking the time to help, I can already feel it working!

Warm regards, Petrus

And to you Petrus!

[Petrus]

Hi Nancy,

...but when thoughts are rambling on then I'm not really feeling the body, I'm in my head!

Not in your head, but in thought, right?

Bring your awareness....

Knock, knock, who is there to bring awareness somewhere?

there is a physical brain...

Did you ever see yours?

Warm regards,
Petrus

[nancypants11]

...but when thoughts are rambling on then I'm not really feeling the body, I'm in my head!

Not in your head, but in thought, right?

Oh yes that's correct. In thought.

Bring your awareness....

Knock, knock, who is there to bring awareness somewhere?

Right! There's not a self to bring awareness anywhere.

there is a physical brain...

Did you ever see yours?

Haa no I haven't! Good point. It would be a concept then!

[Petrus]

Hi Nancy,

So far, so good...:)

Next:
An exercise!

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?

Do you have control over this body?
Can you locate a mind?

Can you feel your ears?
Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in actual experience?
Are you this body?

Regards, Petrus

[nancypants11]

So far, so good...:)

Yay!

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No.

Does the body have a weight or a volume?

It seems to have none!

Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?

I can't sense one.

Can you feel where the body ends?

Not at all.

Do you have control over this body?

It doesn't seem like it! Things just happen to/with it.

Can you locate a mind?

No.

Can you feel your ears?

No.

Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

There is hearing.

In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

None to speak of, it's vague.

Is there an inside or outside?

They feel the same!

What does the body consist of in actual experience?

It's the feeling of aliveness, that's it!

Are you this body?

No, and now the notion seems silly to even consider!

What a great exercise! Thank you so much Petrus!

[Petrus]

Hi Nancy,

What does the body consist of in actual experience?

It's the feeling of aliveness, that's it!

So, this socalled body is only a bunch of experience of pressure here or maybe pain there, and somtimes you doesnt even feel a body! Do you agree?

I reread your first post:

Shortly thereafter I had a number of Oneness experiences.

Many times after Oneness experiences, people are yearning for more.
A oneness experience is something else than seeing there is no seperate self.
Experiences come and go, but what is seen cannot be unseen.
If you see Santa is not real, you never will be believe in him again!
Do you agree?

I'm feeling like the no-self thing isn't quite sticking.

If that is still the case, please elaborate.

... but I am still feeling some level of separation, and a lot of distracting thoughts and emotions.

Thoughts and feelings (of separation) come and go. But do they make a seperate I?

Warm regards, Petrus

[nancypants11]

Hi Petrus,

What does the body consist of in actual experience?

It's the feeling of aliveness, that's it!

So, this socalled body is only a bunch of experience of pressure here or maybe pain there, and somtimes you doesnt even feel a body! Do you agree?

Yes I agree. What we call a body is really sensations, awareness.

I reread your first post:

Shortly thereafter I had a number of Oneness experiences.

Many times after Oneness experiences, people are yearning for more.
A oneness experience is something else than seeing there is no seperate self.
Experiences come and go, but what is seen cannot be unseen.
If you see Santa is not real, you never will be believe in him again!
Do you agree?

In theory I know better than to want to have those original Oneness experiences again, or expect them to remain permanently. In theory anyway. :)

Interesting! I had lumped Oneness experiences in with no separate self! When I had originally seen no separate self I then had this expansive feeling and all borders were dissolved. I seemed to be feeling and experiencing no self. Hmm!

Yes that's true once you have seen no separate self it can't be unseen. Just like seeing no Santa.

I'm feeling like the no-self thing isn't quite sticking.

If that is still the case, please elaborate.

The LU audio After Gate says "possibly deep negativity will arise", and I had that for awhile. It also said doubts could arise, which is what I'm getting now. When I look I still see there is no separate 'I', and I know there is no separate 'I'.

... but I am still feeling some level of separation, and a lot of distracting thoughts and emotions.

Thoughts and feelings (of separation) come and go. But do they make a seperate I?

Good point!! That's true indeed, even tho these thoughts and feelings come and go, they don't make a separate I.

Ok, I suspect what's happening is my expectations were that the negative/doubting thoughts/feelings would leave, permanently. Also I'm expecting instantaneous change but all this conditioning has to wear off and that takes time. I think I am confusing thoughts/feelings with un-seeing a separate self!

Thank you so much for all your help Petrus!

[Petrus]

Hi Nancy,

I think I am confusing thoughts/feelings with un-seeing a separate self!

Maybe so. Feel and see for a while...

It also said doubts could arise, which is what I'm getting now.

Doubts are just thoughts with nasty feelings accompanying them, arent they?
Maybe write out all the remaining doubts here in this post, so you can throw them away after that?

Warmest regards, Petrus

[nancypants11]

Hi Petrus,

I think I am confusing thoughts/feelings with un-seeing a separate self!

Maybe so. Feel and see for a while...

Ok will do.

It also said doubts could arise, which is what I'm getting now.

Doubts are just thoughts with nasty feelings accompanying them, arent they?

Boy that's the truth! Hadn't thought of it that way, but it is so true!

Maybe write out all the remaining doubts here in this post, so you can throw them away after that?

Well it's funny, now that you've pointed out a number of things that I was taking so seriously as being thoughts, concepts, and feelings, I'm not feeling as doubtful! I'm having a hard time finding any doubts at all.