All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani

You can experience one thing and then another but isn't 'leading to' or 'reaction' another idea ? Do you experience 'leading to'?

Leading to, might be experience as in, this is what usually happens in similar cases. (I looked at a foot that where slowly becoming numb). and the leading to was recalling memories, again. But I do follow, and see what you mean. thank you. this is new to me how to look. thank for help

There is awareness but is there some entity, some observer having this?

. No, I don't see an entity anymore.

If 'registering' is being done by someone can you get them to stop doing it ?

Registering isn't done by someone. It is 'awareness of', and 'recalling of knowledge' or 'memory'. This is probably also theory but I don't have any other word for it and I don't know how to express it.

Please look into your experience, really, really look !
The only worthwhile answers are 'inside'. The body usually knows what's true more than thought does.

What I saw when doing the drinking exercise, was a very prepared mind. 'how do I do this?' and I took the same glass. But the sensations in my arm was more that it felt very awkward do stretch diagonally for the other glass. I am just trying to express what is going on in my mind. I do see the exercise from different angles and the purpose of it do play a roll. I was trying to express that.
i will do it again.
all the best
Lin

[Lin]

Hi agai
Yes, I see what you mean. There seams to be a gap between what is going on and how I express it. I will really try to find a better way.

Lin

[ratnapani]

If the glasses are side by side, each as easy to reach as the other

A 'choice' is made .
Or is it?
Who makes it ?
How?
When ?

Relax, observe, without preconceptions or worries.
xx

[Lin]

Easier said than done...
I'll try harder and with greater honesty
Lin

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani

Two glasses , identical in shape and size. Same content. Glass A to the left and glass B to the right. Both glasses are placed a little bit to the right, not straight in front of me. So my right hand wouldn't have to stretch inconveniently. I was before the exercise convinced that I would choose the rightmost one, B.

I sat down and closed my eyes for a while. Just sitting and breathing. Then I counted to five an opened my eyes to see the glasses and stretched out for glass A.

Glass A seam to stand a little closer to 'my center, in front'. Now, glass A seams more attractive and has a very thin label 'mine' or somehow the 'chosen one'.

In the same position but in a changed order, B and A. A seams still more attractive. That is the one I have been sipping from.

I now put both the glasses very much in front if me, in order B and A, an now the B glass have got a new value. It have become the glass I would choose next time.

I couldn't really follow what happened inside. I think the choice was made before I became aware if it....
Lol... when I'm writing this I spontaneously stretch out to reached one of the glasses to drink. And guess what? I took the glass that I've already been sipping from, even though I thought that I would choose the other one because of its new position. Obviously, the glass labeled 'mine' or the 'chosen one' has become my precious. A habit have been borne. It will be named 'fooled myself'.

You know what, this is extremely good for a 'rational-logical-know-it-all-head-person like myself. It is important to have this 'egg' to crack open. I can feel that there is resistance to let go of this self view. But it is not that helpful anymore. I need to be more in contact with what's happening and what's real.
All the best
Lin

[Lin]

I forgot the questions.
I have no idea yet!
Intuition ? gut? No entity though. Subconscious awareness, no idea. I'll keep on looking. I'll guess I won't find what/ how the presumed compounded process looked to make the decision happen.
Kindly
Lin

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,
It sounds as if something is relaxing !

I couldn't really follow what happened inside. I think the choice was made before I became aware if it....

If a choice was made, who made it and when ?

Lol... when I'm writing this I spontaneously stretch out to reached one of the glasses to drink. And guess what? I took the glass that I've already been sipping from, even though I thought that I would choose the other one because of its new position.

Nice one, where is this fixed self that has got everything organised now ? (none of my questions are rhetorical!)

But

Obviously, the glass labeled 'mine' or the 'chosen one' has become my precious. A habit have been borne. It will be named 'fooled myself'.

Do you need this bit? Your experience was your experience, the rest is fabrication, papancha, construing as good Buddhists put it.

You might try again with two different drinks as I suggested in the first place !

Intuition ? gut? No entity though. Subconscious awareness, no idea. I'll keep on looking. I'll guess I won't find what/ how the presumed compounded process looked to make the decision happen.

Maybe this, maybe that, assumptions are empty of all meaning.

Open heart, blue sky, just action, just looking.
And if you watch the arm move ?

Best Wishes,
Rp

[Lin]

hi Ratnapani

If a choice was made, who made it and when ?

I had no contact with what how the action started. there must have been an impulse that sat off the hole action. before that..I can just speculate. It didn't felt like a conceptual decision. It just happened, from an impulse, after I'd counted to five. I knew already that I was going to take one glass after the counting. that was part of the plan, so to speak.

Lol... when I'm writing this I spontaneously stretch out to reached one of the glasses to drink. And guess what? I took the glass that I've already been sipping from, even though I thought that I would choose the other one because of its new position.
Nice one, where is this fixed self that has got everything organised now ? (none of my questions are rhetorical!)

dissolved? there was the feeling that I recognize as a feeling that are felt if surprised.

Obviously, the glass labeled 'mine' or the 'chosen one' has become my precious. A habit have been borne. It will be named 'fooled myself'.
Do you need this bit? Your experience was your experience, the rest is fabrication, papancha, construing as good Buddhists put it.

I'm sorry, that was unnecessary. No excuse. There was (habitual) frustration because of the inability to see through. And, no, it wasn't helpful.

tryout number two:
two different glasses, similar in size, different content.
Glass A with nectar-juice, orange in color. Glass B lime-juice with some honey, light yellow in color. Both glasses directly in front of me.
I sat and relaxed for a while and the I counted to five. the impulse to stretch was 'followed' by a movement, a contraction in my muscles in the arm. 'My' arm stretches out (because I know what to do) and in front of the glasses there is some hesitation. Then surrender, and the then grabbing a glass. The choice was glass B to the right with lime juice.
I sip, put the glass down in the same position. Waited a bit and then I did the same action again. the next choice had the same outcome. I grabbed the same glass.

Scratching down some notes for a while and spontaneously grab the outer glass. why? more sugar in it?
comments:

honestly, I have no idea, I am not in contact with this process. it doesn't feel like a conscious, conceptual decision, like in 'Now, I am going to have a drink'. I have already agreed to take part in the exercise. The exercise have a momentum that says drinking from a glass, so that part I know already. then there is a waiting and a counting where I prepare. and then the impulse to move the arm to grab the glass comes. And when the arm is moving, I seams that I forget all that eventually happened before the action. There is volition and impulse to move the arm and so on, but when it comes to the choice of drink..I am lost.

Relax, observe, without preconceptions or worries.

without preconceptions? how do I do that?

I'll try again... blue sky..
all the best
Lin

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani
This is what is going on. I feel some anxiety and frustration. There is a feeling of that I need to see something that I'm not seeing. It feels like I'm weighing my words carefully not to use the 'wrong' words. This is a totally new way of looking and it will probably take some time. I have this, again, conceptual idea of where we are going and what I am suppose to understand. But I think it is hard. I have also a conceptual idea of how, without the 'I', a human being comes together or functions. This is maybe a hinder from seeing. It is really intresting to see how strong the attachmet is to the conceptualised world of ideas. I'm just writing this to that you know what is going on. I'm trying to find a way to relax. What shall I see in the exercise with the glasses?
There is a decision made by a process (probably). That process is often called 'I' but because there isn't an entity or a who to make the decision, 'I' will call it awareness, impulses and volitional action. This might be conceptual as well. This is really hard but I don't give up. I have to see!
...blue sky
Lin

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani
How does the key look. The key to see beyond or through?
I have a feeling that what I have too see or understand is just in front of me.
Lin

[Lin]

I will stop trying. That is to much effort and that becomes a hinder. Relax, let go...
Blue sky...
Lin

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,

I'm glad you used juice and not wine or this could get silly !

I had no contact with what how the action started.

Good, you didn't see what wasn't there, that's encouraging.

before that..I can just speculate.

But, on the other hand, you don't have to.

.

It just happened, from an impulse,

Great, was 'a Lin' noticed having an impulse or was just 'happening' noticed ?

Nice one, where is this fixed self that has got everything organised now ? (none of my questions are rhetorical!)
dissolved? there was the feeling that I recognize as a feeling that are felt if surprised.

Not much of a fixed self if it dissolves with a bit of observation. Like Santa 'dissolved' when the postman delivered presents.
Surprise is also very encouraging - an assumption, conscious or not, was confounded (contradicted).

I'm sorry, that was unnecessary. No excuse. There was (habitual) frustration because of the inability to see through.

Pleeeeeeese do not be sorry, we are on a journey together and there is no timetable and absolutely no need for excuses.
If 'you' are busy demanding of 'yourself' that 'you' get it ; the simple truth that 'you' are not actually there might pop in and get missed!
Does the irony of giving 'yourself' a hard time occur to you ?

And then :

Waited a bit and then I did the same action again. the next choice had the same outcome

From your description I understand that there were actions but 'choice' ? Are you assuming choice or did you see one?

honestly, I have no idea, I am not in contact with this process. it doesn't feel like a conscious, conceptual decision,

Does it feel like you are just not getting it?

Conditions arise and stuff happens as it usually does. If you let go of the default of having to 'understand' stuff happening does anything get lost ?

And when the arm is moving, I seams that I forget all that eventually happened before the action. There is volition and impulse to move the arm and so on, but when it comes to the choice of drink..I am lost.

I'm confused by language here. I like the idea that you just observed the body as it moved but perhaps you were thinking it through (?) 'I am lost' , does it mean you don't know what you 'should' be experiencing?

Yes, ok anxiety and frustration; you know what you 'should' be seeing or experiencing but you are not.

. What shall I see in the exercise with the glasses?
There is a decision made by a process (probably). That process is often called 'I' but because there isn't an entity or a who to make the decision, 'I' will call it awareness, impulses and volitional action.

There isn't an entity 'I' or so you believe, so you build a substitute from awareness, impulses and volitional action.
It comes to the same thing - making a noun out of a lot of things that are verbs, none of them are fixed, non of them ever stand still.

Can we do something else to try and bypass ideas and assumptions of what should be happening?
This is a common body awareness practice that might help to separate what you do experience in bodily sensation from what you know to be the case.

Body Exercise
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

How many toes do you have?
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
What is your gender?

In your first-hand experience, does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
Can any ‘I’ or ‘me be found in the body?

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the actual experience of the body?

Is anything missing?

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani

I'm glad you used juice and not wine or this could get silly !

I'm trying to keep the precepts. Moving away from intoxicants towards clarity, mindfulness and awareness. Life is confusing enough as it is.

It just happened, from an impulse,
Great, was 'a Lin' noticed having an impulse or was just 'happening' noticed ?

no, I don't think it was an impulse after all, it was more like muscles contracting to move as a starting point for the rest of the action. Happening was noticed.

Not much of a fixed self if it dissolves with a bit of observation. Like Santa 'dissolved' when the postman delivered presents.
Surprise is also very encouraging - an assumption, conscious or not, was confounded (contradicted).

It seams like this is part is the tricky one'. "Do you have a fixed self? -Yes, No, Yes, No.....sometimes I have no idea of the self and it is very easy to forget or let go of the knowledge of an assumed 'I' and at other times the 'I' has really got me hooked. Sometimes habitual reactions and behavior and other times being here now, stillness, open and clarity, without prejudice.

If 'you' are busy demanding of 'yourself' that 'you' get it ; the simple truth that 'you' are not actually there might pop in and get missed!
Does the irony of giving 'yourself' a hard time occur to you ?

Yes, sometimes I'm giving myself a hard time, Old habits coming and going. That is also one of the reasons for doing this inquiry. Get to learn to 'unknow' 'myself' and 'I' am (un)learning a lot from this.
Maybe that was a good thing after all, the frustration and so on. I noticed that I was trying to hard to understand. I decided to let go of understanding, frustration and the urge to do things right. Without that confusion and frustration I might not have spotted that process.

Waited a bit and then I did the same action again. the next choice had the same outcome
From your description I understand that there were actions but 'choice' ? Are you assuming choice or did you see one?

well, there was action and I didn't grab both glasses so there was some kind of choice, I assume.

I

honestly, I have no idea, I am not in contact with this process. it doesn't feel like a conscious, conceptual decision,
Does it feel like you are just not getting it?

It felt that I wasn't getting it. I knew what to do when I sat down. Thinking about it now, it felt as if that fact was disturbing me from following the process. I couldn't see where it starred. I red our conversation through and understood that I put to much effort in and decided to let go of all that.

Conditions arise and stuff happens as it usually does. If you let go of the default of having to 'understand' stuff happening does anything get lost ?

Yes, tension get lost and that is a relief. I don't have to but I do. It has been a lot of proving myself and pleasing others through the years but that stopped a while ago. The habits are still there and it can take a while before I see that I'm hooked. I get confused and a bit stressed in new situations. I guess that comes from an idea from early age through out life, that I have to be smart. I know that I don't need to and that I don't have to prove myself.

And when the arm is moving, I seams that I forget all that eventually happened before the action. There is volition and impulse to move the arm and so on, but when it comes to the choice of drink..I am lost.
I'm confused by language here. I like the idea that you just observed the body as it moved but perhaps you were thinking it through (?) 'I am lost' , does it mean you don't know what you 'should' be experiencing?

It should say.. And when the arm is moving, I seam to forget all that possibly was happening before the action started... I was using the wrong word.
well, we think that we are making choices, don't we? not as an 'I' entity but as a process. I took one of the glasses not both. But what was going on before the glass was grabbed, I don't know. That is why I was lost. It meant that I wasn't able to follow what was happening.

There isn't an entity 'I' or so you believe, so you build a substitute from awareness, impulses and volitional action.
It comes to the same thing - making a noun out of a lot of things that are verbs, none of them are fixed, non of them ever stand still.

Here I am a little lost. Can you please help out, what do you mean? There is awareness otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. There are impulses, but I don't have to follow them, even if they are strong. If there is intention to do or say something and if I follow that kind of impulse, I guess that is what is called volitional action. Processes are happening and some of them the consciousness become aware of. That is the normal functions of a human body.
There is heartbeat, stomach-activity, pulsation, lungs expanding and contracting and a lot of other things happening in the body as well, why are there not psychological experiences out of that? I am aware of the heart beating, I can feel it and even sens it in my ears.
So I don't get the part of making substitutes. Language is conceptual and that is the only tool we've got here. Of course none of the above is fixed. There is only change , not even things changing but just change in the universe, and I am no exception.

Body Exercise

How many toes do you have?
I can't experience that. They are not countable by experience. I don't even know if they are many or just one.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
No.

Does the body have a weight or volume?
No

What is your gender?
None

In your first-hand experience, does the body have a shape or a form?
No.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Not an experienced actual boundary

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
There is a field of consciousnesses or awareness. There is a presumed 'inside the skin' but that is more a matter of location and also it is good that my intestines are on the 'inside of the skin of the stomach' and not on the carpet. There is a sense of inside under the eyelids and outside when the eyes are open. But there isn't that big difference between what is inside the body and outside of it. It is just empty matter with different functions.

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
see above

Can any ‘I’ or ‘me be found in the body?
No

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
the boundaries of the skin...with all that is needed for it to function on the inside of the skin.

What is the actual experience of the body?
pulsating, tingeing, heaviness, darkness, itching, aching, a bit burning, heart-beating, warmth, pricking, contraction, release, vibrations, a pitch-tone due to some tinnitus..........

thank you for clarifying
all the best
Lin

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani
Here comes an other try on some of the body experience excercise:


Does the body have a weight or volume?
Yes there is a sense of the sensations in my feet to be more perific in the field of awareness. That is the volume part of the question. Yesterday I answered no. I kind of go between those to anwers.

Is there an inside or an outside?
There is some kind of end fore the sensory field. Maybe that end also sets the boundary.

Sorry for not using the quotation, it doesn't seam to work on the iPad.
All the best
Lin

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,
A bit late today as there was much to do after a week away.

I noticed that I was trying to hard to understand. I decided to let go of understanding, frustration and the urge to do things right.

Good !

well, there was action and I didn't grab both glasses so there was some kind of choice, I assume.

You assume there was some kind of choice but you didn't see a Lin making one.

we think that we are making choices, don't we? not as an 'I' entity but as a process.

Do you in fact still think that 'you' make choices because you haven't seen that a Linness wasn't necessary for the events to occur? The idea of 'just a process' is still an idea. Even if a true one !

There are impulses, but I don't have to follow them, even if they are strong.

And does that prove there is a me/myself that 'chooses' not to follow them?
Could it be just conditionings and memory and thoughts arising?
Do you feel that if there was no one fixed in the driving seat then everything would be just random ?

That is why I was lost. It meant that I wasn't able to follow what was happening.

Ok, all you need to do is look, moment by moment. The past moment is gone, the next moment has yet to arise so both are 'illusory'. I'm sure you've heard that before!

If there is intention to do or say something and if I follow that kind of impulse, I guess that is what is called volitional action. Processes are happening and some of them the consciousness become aware of.

Certainly but where is anything 'fixed' in that ? Do these events need a 'self' in order to happen ?
I was suggesting that since you 'know' there isn't one the next best thing is to hold to 'my' volitions etc.for a sense of security.
But look at your experience, is there an actual 'me' in the middle of impulse, volition and so on.

It seams like this is part is the tricky one'. "Do you have a fixed self? -Yes, No, Yes, No.....sometimes I have no idea of the self and it is very easy to forget or let go of the knowledge of an assumed 'I' and at other times the 'I' has really got me hooked. Sometimes habitual reactions and behavior and other times being here now, stillness, open and clarity, without prejudice.

This part is why we are here !
You have a sense of me/myself.
When awareness is expansive this sense is minimal or absent.
When awareness is constricted this sense is strong and ever present.
This is not what we are concerned with !! These states come and go.
What is a constant is the illusion that there is a psychic entity running the show, having these experiences.

You are looking within for a me or myself around which everything happens.
You are not trying to wear something down by doing practices - it's not there.

Would you try the body exercise again and give me some details of what you actually experience with the physical senses?
No thoughts, no assumptions.

I really appreciate your commitment to this enquiry.

The truth is 'too close to be seen' - look within.
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.