All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,
It would really help if you could use the quote function. There are instructions at the top of The Gate page. If you use a Mac I can make it simpler.

I must confess that my heart sank when I read the first message from yesterday afternoon! I could only guess what you meant.

Followed by

There is just awareness...

and change

Great, but anyone can say it.

But now

.

It suddenly became clear that there is no need for the separation of thoughts and thinker, the "I" separated from the rest

Great stuff and a big sigh of relief here.

Just awareness, simple as that! I don't know how that happend but suddenly the point of understanding just turned around.

Nice, it turned around, 'you' did nothing but look - and dropped in the helpful words.

Before this view, the thinking was not included. It was a poin of view where the "I" still tryed to sort things out without including it self. Maybe I am on to something very important....? It feels good anyway. It feels openminded and calmer then before.

I'd say you have seen something vitally important, a sense of relaxing and opening is always a good sign.

Do you mind if we hammer away at the nature of thought a bit more?
I have a whole mass of questions about thinking so don't think (!) just answer from the gut, you can probably let the questions answer themselves.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Do relax and take your time, there are no right answers.

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.

[Lin]

Thank you! I obviously have some work to do! I'll be back using the quote function.
All the best meanwhile
Lin

[ratnapani]

Do let it be playful !

It doesn't matter what you think, or what the Dharma says, there is just looking at what is actually your experience.
I would start with body awareness, being 'in the body' is fairly direct experience and possibly an anchor to counter any mental proliferation.

With the heart.

[Lin]

Trying out the quote-function by clarifying

Before this view, the thinking was not included. It was a poin of view where the "I" still tryed to sort things out without including it self. Maybe I am on to something very important....?

I just want to clearify this rather confused sentence.
I ment as follows:
Before this view of "all-included awareness" (understanding) the thinker ("I") was not included. It was a point of view where "I" still tryed to sort things out separately, not understanding that the notion of an 'I' actually is included in the awareness.

Yes, I will take it playfully (as best as I can). There is a lot of things happening just by reading the questions through.
Yeay it worked (qoute)
All the best
Lin

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani



Where do thoughts come from?
It seams that they come from nowhere.

Where are they going?
They are going back to where they came from. They dive into darkness if you spot them.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Yes, I think so.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No.

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Yes, nowadays. Yes definitely.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No, but in the same time there is something that can hinder, redirect or change thoughts. (?)

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
In a way yes, but then again no. The deeper the canyon, the harder it is not to fall into it. If it old habits it can be quite difficult. There is a difference between thoughts. Thoughts with words or without words, more like emotions and pictures. Those with words are easier to have en affect on or to control.

Can you choose what to think?
Yes, I believe so. Maybe the thoughts started ling before I spotted them. I think I choose now what to wright and that is also a thought. But then agin, no, not in general. When one listens to what is going on in ones mind during meditation, I would say no.

Can you choose what not to think?
Yes, for a little while and I guess they will be either supressed or neglected.

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?
No I don't think the brain thinks thoughts. I believe that they are somehow 'produced' in/by the brain and maybe the gut. There are some simular neurons in your brain that are found in your colon, so some kind of co-working process is going on. But I can register thoughts in the head. But most of them are part of pratitya samutpada and generates because of something that triggers them and that something is triggered by something else, as in different sense stimuli.

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Both! Most of the time thoughts are thinking me. You definitely recognise this when in meditation.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Thoughts in general, no you cant stop them. A particular thought yes, for a while if it is still young and not an old habit. The deeper the canyon....

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
Yes, the 'I' comes with word-thoughts and with language.

All the best
Lin

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,

Where do thoughts come from?
It seams that they come from nowhere.

Where are they going?
They are going back to where they came from. They dive into darkness if you spot them.

Quite so, as we English say. But are you sure ' 'they' 'dive into darkness '- ? (:

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Yes, I think so.

So who is it that stops the thought ?

Because you say :

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No.

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Yes, nowadays. Yes definitely.

There's no thinker but there is a stopper ?
If I was there could you point me to the stopper?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No, but in the same time there is something that can hinder, redirect or change thoughts. (?)

I think you've got a point. There is no one in charge of thoughts but there is volition, samskara which also means habit.
So there are all these habitual inclinations and actions that you also call 'me'.
It's worth looking into all habitual activity for the 'I' you probably assume is doing it.

We'll look into the whole matter of choice later because I notice that you are becoming more theoretical and coming less from experience after this.

But most of them are part of pratitya samutpada and generates because of something that triggers them and that something is triggered by something else, as in different sense stimuli.

You definitely didn't experience neuro science but did you experience this at the time or is it just familiar doctrine.
Can you sit and experience one thing leading to another and is there a separate observer needed for that ?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Both! Most of the time thoughts are thinking me. You definitely recognise this when in meditation.

Keep looking, can you experience ''you' thinking a thought - ever ?

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
Yes, the 'I' comes with word-thoughts and with language.

Is there only 'I' when 'thinking with words' or speaking ?
There is non-verbal or at least very 'thin' thought going on nearly all the time, can you tune into that and ever find no 'i' involved ? No 'I' assumed ?
That's meditation that is !!

We want your direct experience, sometimes ignorance is best !

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.

[Lin]

Hi
I got carried away, sorry about that. I'll do it again. With help from your new questions.
I'll get back to you.
Lin

[Lin]

Hi
lets try again

Where do thoughts come from?
It seams that they come from nowhere.

Where are they going?
They are going back to where they came from. They dive into darkness if you spot them.
Quite so, as we English say. But are you sure ' 'they' 'dive into darkness '- ? (:

it is a description of an experience that I had during meditation one time. It felt/looked like wave,and the thought dissolved.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Yes, I think so.
So who is it that stops the thought ?

I don´t know, there isn´t a who. there is volition that stops the thought.

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Yes, nowadays. Yes definitely.
There's no thinker but there is a stopper ?
If I was there could you point me to the stopper?

Volition within the field of awareness.

You definitely didn't experience neuro science but did you experience this at the time or is it just familiar doctrine.
Can you sit and experience one thing leading to another and is there a separate observer needed for that ?

got carried away, sorry! it is familiar doctrine. but of cores one can experience one thing leading to another when it comes to vedana and reactions to that. and yes, there is an observer, something register what happens.

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Both! Most of the time thoughts are thinking me. You definitely recognize this when in meditation.
Keep looking, can you experience ''you' thinking a thought - ever ?

ok, thoughts are not thinking me. that was the question. thoughts are thinking themselves. they are just happening.

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
Yes, the 'I' comes with word-thoughts and with language.
Is there only 'I' when 'thinking with words' or speaking ?
There is non-verbal or at least very 'thin' thought going on nearly all the time, can you tune into that and ever find no 'i' involved ? No 'I' assumed ?
That's meditation that is !!

In that case, I guess there is an experience of a persona, all the time. I guess this is what I call 'I' even though it is not a deity or a solid one. I guess I was to narrow in my interpretation of the question. I can recognize something familiar inside this body, a tonus or a tone.

here comes the rest:
(some are the same and other are more honest I hope)

Where does thoughts come from?
no idea, they just appear, coming from nowhere.

where are they going?
nowhere they just dissolve.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?
yes

Can 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No. I can't really find it. the more I look for it the harder it gets to find that which was so obvious before, that which I called 'I' before. Now it feels more like the tonus that I talked about. and as I understand it that is recognized as a thought as well...

Does the thinker of the thoughts appear in experience? Can it be found?
No

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
yes

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No, not an 'I' but it is volitional...

Can you choose not to have painful thoughts?
yes and no but you have to be aware of them to be able to redirect them or to notice what in your body or mind that triggers them. I'm not experiencing any painful thoughts at the moment so this answer will have to be from recalling earlier experiences.

Can you choose what not to think?
yes

Is it the brain that thinks the thoughts?
no, the brain isn't thinking thoughts. it generates thoughts that the awareness is experiencing somewhere in the head.

Do you think thoughts or do thought think you?
they are just happening.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
no, I cant stop thoughts in general.

and the last one I believe I answered above.
I hope this was less theory. I really tried to note if the answer was coming from inside or if it was familiar doctrine this time. I really cant tell the difference any more.

all the best
Lin

[Lin]

Sorry for being such a 'head'-person.

All the best
Lin

[Lin]

Hi again
Sorry again. I want to correct a QandA above. The question 'Can you choise not tho think?' I have answered 'yes' it should be ' no' . You can't stop thoughts from appearing.
Lin

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani
This is what 'I' found out today.
There is general, all-inclusive awareness. There is within that awareness, there are recognition and memories, both experience-based and knowledge-based memories. Because if recognition there is habits. There are muscular tensions, a tonus, there are memories of how the voice sounds. There are all kinds if pulsation, vibration and contraction going on. Because of recognition and volition and memories there is a sense of persona. This is what I experienced during meditation today. I sat with the question 'On what does the sense if 'I' depend?'
There is a habitual, on the surface belief that there is this 'I' but when you look deeper it is very hard to find. Now, when looking into things that 'I' do it is easier to see the habitual pattern. But som part of me still wants to hold in to the sense if 'I'. I guess that is the habit speaking.
All the best
Lin

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,

but of cores one can experience one thing leading to another when it comes to vedana and reactions to that. and yes, there is an observer, something register what happens.

You can experience one thing and then another but isn't 'leading to' or 'reaction' another idea ? Do you experience 'leading to'?

There is awareness but is there some entity, some observer having this?

If 'registering' is being done by someone can you get them to stop doing it ?


We've explored the area of thoughts a bit and if we've got them coming from nowhere and going nowhere and not in 'your' control really that will probably do.
At least we know 'you' are not 'your' thoughts which perhaps suggests that most of them are not to be believed, more habits of mind that you have grown accustomed to building your world out of!

This is what 'I' found out today.
There is general, all-inclusive awareness. There is within that awareness, there are recognition and memories, both experience-based and knowledge-based memories. Because if recognition there is habits. There are muscular tensions, a tonus, there are memories of how the voice sounds. There are all kinds if pulsation, vibration and contraction going on. Because of recognition and volition and memories there is a sense of persona.

That seems like a pretty good assessment of the situation.

'On what does the sense if 'I' depend?'
There is a habitual, on the surface belief that there is this 'I' but when you look deeper it is very hard to find. Now, when looking into things that 'I' do it is easier to see the habitual pattern. But som part of me still wants to hold in to the sense if 'I'. I guess that is the habit speaking.

That's great - clear 'looking'.
We are not looking for a 'sense' of 'I', - in general that will persist for some while.
We are looking for the assumed ME, the gnome at the steering wheel that we think is in control of the journey.

Let's check for a driver!

Would you set up two different drinks that you like on a table in front of a comfortable chair.
Sit down, relax, take your time.
When you are ready reach out, pick a drink and take a sip.
Repeat if appropriate !

Can you describe to me what happened in detail please.
Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.

[ratnapani]

Aha,
I didn't think enough !
With the drinking exercise, having settled both physically and mentally - count, 1-2-3-4-5

and then reach for one of the drinks. The countdown helps! xx

[Lin]

Hi Ratnapani
Exercise with two drinks.
I took the same glas.
I could come up with a lot of reasons for that, like I am right-handed, the glass position was more convenient in relation to my right hand, and so on.
If the exercise would have been without the relaxing and counting. I would probably have chosen the other one (drink) out of curiosity. The exercise was not about to taste the different drinks but to reach out for a glass and drink from it. I don't know if this is habit? Is it? Maybe the right handed thing is habit? And to act out of convenience? Yes that is habitual.

Best wishes
Lin

[ratnapani]

Hi Lin,

There were a couple of questions I'd like you to look at.

but of cores one can experience one thing leading to another when it comes to vedana and reactions to that. and yes, there is an observer, something register what happens.
You can experience one thing and then another but isn't 'leading to' or 'reaction' another idea ? Do you experience 'leading to'?

There is awareness but is there some entity, some observer having this?

If 'registering' is being done by someone can you get them to stop doing it ?

Please look into your experience, really, really look !
The only worthwhile answers are 'inside'. The body usually knows what's true more than thought does.

Your answers to the drinking exercise sound theoretical.

Would you try again in slow motion, and observe exactly what is going on in body and mind? Thanks !

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani