Hi Christina - apologies for the delay. I want to give this the attention it deserves - there are a lot of questions to answer - but I should have some time later today.
Best
Kelly
Goodbye self!
Re: Goodbye self!
Hi Kelly!
Thanks for letting me know!
So far,
Christina
Thanks for letting me know!
So far,
Christina
Re: Goodbye self!
Hi Christina!
Here goes...
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is not a self and there never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
From my experience, the separate self was thoughts about thoughts, sensations and past experiences that created a construct of who "I" was. Once the "I" was there it was easy to see myself as separate from everyone else, usually through a process or evaluation or judging others in comparison. The more I judged and compared, the more 'me' I became. Interestingly, my criteria for judgment changed over time, likes and dislikes changed, but it still seemed like 'me'. When did it start? Not sure - it's been that way 'my' whole life.
How "I" see it now: thoughts, judgments and criteria are seen as the workings of a body/mind on autopilot. Thoughts happen, sensations happen, but there is no "self" directing them. Decisions are just thoughts - just because there are decisions and actions doesn't mean that there is an "I" necessary to make it all happen. For example, typing now is just typing, not 'I am typing'.
When first looking at what happens when decisions were made I was attributing the choice of ginger tea as coming from 'me', but now I see it was a process of deduction that did not need an owner.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
At first it felt more like a belief or vague instinct than a realisation. I would be aware of my thoughts as just thoughts, but still felt 'I' was in control. For example, over the weekend someone in a crowd accidentally shoved me. Before I started this dialogue, I would have felt the sensation of anger or judgement arise, and then probably made a choice to release it and forgive, but I would have attributed that decision to self.
Instead, when it happened I did the same thing - releasing and forgiving - but didn't attribute that action to an entity. It's not about building a better version of 'myself' anymore. It's just doing, just being.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The more I looked it became clear. The exercise of feeling where "I" end and everything else begins was great and is something I do all the time now.
What pushed me over was connecting that emotions that cause physical sensation are also part of the equation of building 'self', not just thoughts. That seemed to be what was holding the self concept together for me. Thoughts are so obviously random and unpredictable, but bodily sensations are more predictable in contrast with thoughts. We are always told to trust our 'gut', which really is a sensation when it comes down to it. So the idea that the 'gut' or heart feeling is a part of self is reinforced in our culture. After looking closely at 'my' emotional sensation and seeing it as just physical sensation, the same as brushing teeth, that was eye-opening.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
My recent experience with decisions is described a bit above. Free will, choice and control - that can become quite philosophical, particularly discussions of free will. From my experience it's clear that 'choosing' and 'deciding' happens - like choosing ginger tea a few weeks ago but peppermint every time since.This comes from the body/mind. There is no need for a layer of 'self' to control these things. Free will seems to be a larger topic - obviously we don't choose what family/race/class/location we are born into, so that erodes the idea of free will from even the first moments of life. And then our actions are shaped by the previous actions of others, etc, etc. (Not sure that's what you're asking?!)
What makes things happen? The mind has thoughts and the body has actions - together they do things. Like right now the body/mind is coordinating to answer these questions, shooting out thoughts and the body is typing them up, making this conversation happen.
What are you responsible for? Living life, just as before, but without 'owning' it. So 'the Kelly' will continue to do her best at work and contribute to her field ...but it will be for the purpose of 'living life' rather than enriching 'myself' or personal pride, or to make others proud or look up to 'me'.
6) Anything to add?
Direct experience has been more exhausting than anticipated for some reason. And at times there are moments when 'self' comes round like a bad habit. On the phone with my father last night, we were discussing my sister who has not talked to my father in years. Family matters can somehow cast a momentary cloud of self, but it floated by.
In recent days there have been several instances of reaching out to strangers more. It's one thing not seeing a 'self' attached to the body/mind, but it's even more liberating seeing that others lack it as well.
:)
Best,
Kelly
Here goes...
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is not a self and there never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
From my experience, the separate self was thoughts about thoughts, sensations and past experiences that created a construct of who "I" was. Once the "I" was there it was easy to see myself as separate from everyone else, usually through a process or evaluation or judging others in comparison. The more I judged and compared, the more 'me' I became. Interestingly, my criteria for judgment changed over time, likes and dislikes changed, but it still seemed like 'me'. When did it start? Not sure - it's been that way 'my' whole life.
How "I" see it now: thoughts, judgments and criteria are seen as the workings of a body/mind on autopilot. Thoughts happen, sensations happen, but there is no "self" directing them. Decisions are just thoughts - just because there are decisions and actions doesn't mean that there is an "I" necessary to make it all happen. For example, typing now is just typing, not 'I am typing'.
When first looking at what happens when decisions were made I was attributing the choice of ginger tea as coming from 'me', but now I see it was a process of deduction that did not need an owner.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
At first it felt more like a belief or vague instinct than a realisation. I would be aware of my thoughts as just thoughts, but still felt 'I' was in control. For example, over the weekend someone in a crowd accidentally shoved me. Before I started this dialogue, I would have felt the sensation of anger or judgement arise, and then probably made a choice to release it and forgive, but I would have attributed that decision to self.
Instead, when it happened I did the same thing - releasing and forgiving - but didn't attribute that action to an entity. It's not about building a better version of 'myself' anymore. It's just doing, just being.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The more I looked it became clear. The exercise of feeling where "I" end and everything else begins was great and is something I do all the time now.
What pushed me over was connecting that emotions that cause physical sensation are also part of the equation of building 'self', not just thoughts. That seemed to be what was holding the self concept together for me. Thoughts are so obviously random and unpredictable, but bodily sensations are more predictable in contrast with thoughts. We are always told to trust our 'gut', which really is a sensation when it comes down to it. So the idea that the 'gut' or heart feeling is a part of self is reinforced in our culture. After looking closely at 'my' emotional sensation and seeing it as just physical sensation, the same as brushing teeth, that was eye-opening.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
My recent experience with decisions is described a bit above. Free will, choice and control - that can become quite philosophical, particularly discussions of free will. From my experience it's clear that 'choosing' and 'deciding' happens - like choosing ginger tea a few weeks ago but peppermint every time since.This comes from the body/mind. There is no need for a layer of 'self' to control these things. Free will seems to be a larger topic - obviously we don't choose what family/race/class/location we are born into, so that erodes the idea of free will from even the first moments of life. And then our actions are shaped by the previous actions of others, etc, etc. (Not sure that's what you're asking?!)
What makes things happen? The mind has thoughts and the body has actions - together they do things. Like right now the body/mind is coordinating to answer these questions, shooting out thoughts and the body is typing them up, making this conversation happen.
What are you responsible for? Living life, just as before, but without 'owning' it. So 'the Kelly' will continue to do her best at work and contribute to her field ...but it will be for the purpose of 'living life' rather than enriching 'myself' or personal pride, or to make others proud or look up to 'me'.
6) Anything to add?
Direct experience has been more exhausting than anticipated for some reason. And at times there are moments when 'self' comes round like a bad habit. On the phone with my father last night, we were discussing my sister who has not talked to my father in years. Family matters can somehow cast a momentary cloud of self, but it floated by.
In recent days there have been several instances of reaching out to strangers more. It's one thing not seeing a 'self' attached to the body/mind, but it's even more liberating seeing that others lack it as well.
:)
Best,
Kelly
Re: Goodbye self!
Hello Kelly,
Nevertheless... it seems to me that it's time to wrap this up now! I'll have some other guides look at our thread now and they might have some further questions for you (or not). I'll be back when I know more! :-)
So far,
Christina
I once heard the great suggestion that whenever you think that you're enlightened, go spend a holiday with your family. ;-)On the phone with my father last night, we were discussing my sister who has not talked to my father in years. Family matters can somehow cast a momentary cloud of self, but it floated by.
Nevertheless... it seems to me that it's time to wrap this up now! I'll have some other guides look at our thread now and they might have some further questions for you (or not). I'll be back when I know more! :-)
So far,
Christina
Re: Goodbye self!
Thank you Christina!
Ps. Am spending a week with my family in August - will be a true test, hahaha - thanks for your note.
Ps. Am spending a week with my family in August - will be a true test, hahaha - thanks for your note.
Re: Goodbye self!
Hello Kelly!
First question: You wrote
Thank you!
<3, Christina
PS: There is a PM for you!
First question: You wrote
Could you please look closely and then explain from experience what you mean by 'mind' here?The mind has thoughts and the body has actions - together they do things.
Thank you!
<3, Christina
PS: There is a PM for you!
Re: Goodbye self!
Hi Christina!
The example was typing, which is happening again now! Happy to look... 'Mind' is sort of a catch-all, vague term for a place for thoughts. Like the words that are running through 'my mind' are now being typed. Not the thoughts from ten minutes ago or even 10 seconds ago.
Sort of like, my eyes are in the front of the skull. This particular thought is in the front of the 'mind.'
It all happens as a play, with awareness as the stage (to use your excellent analogy).
Best,
Kelly
And thanks for pointing out the PM! :)
The example was typing, which is happening again now! Happy to look... 'Mind' is sort of a catch-all, vague term for a place for thoughts. Like the words that are running through 'my mind' are now being typed. Not the thoughts from ten minutes ago or even 10 seconds ago.
Sort of like, my eyes are in the front of the skull. This particular thought is in the front of the 'mind.'
It all happens as a play, with awareness as the stage (to use your excellent analogy).
Best,
Kelly
And thanks for pointing out the PM! :)
Re: Goodbye self!
Hi Kelly! Pointing out another pm! :-) Cx
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