Point it out to me please!

[s-p-a-c-e]

Good stuff - thank you.

[sencha71]

What is the face you present to yourself as you?

What a tough question this has been!! I interpret it to mean, versus the self you project to others (social persona) who do you tell yourself you REALLY are inside? I would have had a lot to say here years ago, but after contemplating “who are you?” ad nauseam, I feel as if I've successively thrown out anything I previously believed myself to be. Persona attributes were some of the first things to go.

In fact, this was why I had a Skype session with a teacher several months ago. Questioning “Who/what are you?” had removed many false notions of self, but no big dawning of "Oh, I'm all that is!, etc." had moved in to take it's place. Just a state of "I don't know".

...Or some scientific explanation, like, nothing is really here, concretely, as the mind/body is composed of molecules, made up of atoms, made up of particles, made up of strings, made up of ...?? Yet seeking continues so that obviously doesn't satisfy.

I would write more but each sentence feels like a further movement away from what you originally asked. When I don't know how to answer I wonder if I really understood the question. Is there another way to phrase it, or am I just being a weasel and trying to avoid it?! Happy to continue pondering. :)

Thank you,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

In general, we want to see that who I think I am isn't a real being.
Of course, we'd always thought it was. It felt that way too.
But then, let's say, we see that this me is made up.
It has no basis as a real being at all.
This whole deal was a bit of a cunning sham.

So, one identification skittle down.

Did you knock that skittle down, or are you in a state of don't know?

Many thanks!
John

[sencha71]

I think that skittle is knocked down. Seeing that I wasn't the character I believed myself to be was hugely freeing. For the first few months I thought it was the whole enchilada.

Eventually I realized that it was more like the imagined character was gone, but something still remained: the sense of being an observer, looker, or witness. I have read (dangerous, I know!) that the witness is the last stand of the ego.

Some seem to see conclusively that there is truly "nobody home" and that is the nail in the coffin for seeking. I see the character is not home, but still feel like something else is.

Thanks for your continued guidance,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

I think that skittle is knocked down.

Seeing that I wasn't the character I believed myself to be was hugely freeing. For the first few months I thought it was the whole enchilada.

Describe a little of the enchilada.

Eventually I realized that it was more like the imagined character was gone, but something still remained: the sense of being an observer, looker, or witness. I have read (dangerous, I know!) that the witness is the last stand of the ego.

Ok good. Yeah, witness is sneaky. :)

Some seem to see conclusively that there is truly "nobody home" and that is the nail in the coffin for seeking. I see the character is not home, but still feel like something else is.

Let's take the sense of observer, looker, witness. It's subtle, but distinct. It's there while reading this sentence. Not in the foot :), behind the eyes probably.

You are to use sensitivity and intuition to explore the precise location of this observer sense.
Also, notice its boundaries - for example, does the observer sense seem inside the head or does it flow outside too? Does it have a boundary? Where does it seem to be?

When you locate it, observe the observer sense for 5 minutes.

Imagine looking straight through it.
Imagine a breeze blowing through it.
Imagine it has never been an observer, ever.
Imagine what that's like.
Observer the sense as no longer observer.

Share any discoveries.

Many thanks!
John

[sencha71]

Describe a little of the enchilada.

My “default” state most days became one of quiet joy and deep satisfaction. My mind no longer seemed to create problems out of thin air like it used to (did I pick the right college major? how is my career going? am i living up to my potential?, etc.). I wondered if it was just a good mood - but it didn't seem to be caused by anything. Why not the whole enchilada? Because it was/is conditional instead of unconditional equanimity. It could be upset by external events. But how nice that the default state was now a sense of "nothing is wrong".

Let's take the sense of observer, looker, witness. It's subtle, but distinct. It's there while reading this sentence. Not in the foot :), behind the eyes probably.

Yes definitely not the foot. I used to say behind the eyes, especially because "just looking without judgement" is a primary attribute and literal looking stops when the eyes are closed. Now I'd say cloud-like, around the head, without my being able to tell if it's inside or around the outside.

You are to use sensitivity and intuition to explore the precise location of this observer sense.
Imagine looking straight through it.
Imagine a breeze blowing through it.
Imagine it has never been an observer, ever.
Imagine what that's like.
Observer the sense as no longer observer.

I can tell this will be delicious and is uncharted territory. Will do so and report back!

Thank you,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

I can tell this will be delicious and is uncharted territory. Will do so and report back!

Cool.

Many thanks!
John

[sencha71]

You are to use sensitivity and intuition to explore the precise location of this observer sense.

At first, I had something long written here about how I hear best what is closest to my ears, see best what is closest to my eyes, smell best what is closest to my nose, and taste best what is right on my tongue. And that that is probably what gives the impression of the observer being near those receptors, in/around the head. (Feeling is the exception.)

However I realized I was talking about what is observed (sensory information) not the observer itself. It is hard to separate the two because sensory input is always happening.

Perhaps the exception would be when I'm lost in thought and temporarily ignoring all sensory input. But still here there is an object of observation (thoughts) and while that is happening there isn't a sense of thought being separate from the observer of them. That comes after being lost in thought is over.

In short, I don't think I can experience a pure observer, independent of what is observed, to be able to report anything about it's qualities. Logic would say that's either because it doesn't exist or because I am it, and thus can't observe it.

Imagine looking straight through it.
Imagine a breeze blowing through it.
Imagine it has never been an observer, ever.
Imagine what that's like.
Observer the sense as no longer observer.

Share any discoveries.

This was enlightening. Often a byproduct of exercises such as these is slipping into the sweetness of the feeling of being (probably why I anticipated doing this as "delicious" last post). However, it was EASY to imagine it never having been an observer because the more I sat with this the more observing felt like just an impersonal functioning. At one point I said to myself "just like the character was, the observer is a story too". My mind then protested that I was slipping into nihilism.

Thanks as always,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

In short, I don't think I can experience a pure observer, independent of what is observed, to be able to report anything about it's qualities. Logic would say that's either because it doesn't exist or because I am it, and thus can't observe it.

"I don't think I can experience a pure observer."

Here's to logic. :)

Imagine looking straight through it.
Imagine a breeze blowing through it.
Imagine it has never been an observer, ever.
Imagine what that's like.
Observer the sense as no longer observer.

Share any discoveries.

This was enlightening. Often a byproduct of exercises such as these is slipping into the sweetness of the feeling of being (probably why I anticipated doing this as "delicious" last post). However, it was EASY to imagine it never having been an observer because the more I sat with this the more observing felt like just an impersonal functioning. At one point I said to myself "just like the character was, the observer is a story too". My mind then protested that I was slipping into nihilism.

Well, what does the mind know - fuck all. :)

This really is a very gentle affair. The sensations of observing are what they are, and experienced as they are. It doesn't really matter where these sensations appear to be locationally. But, as you say, they tend to be experienced as being around the head area, sometimes in a quite specific spot, sometimes more nebulous. Nevertheless, there are sensations associated with observing - which is nice. :D

Now, sensations by themselves don't have individual name badges. Which would be cool if they did. :) Neither do they have a name as a group. They just come and go and shift like the mist.

It would never have occurred to us to make up an Observer to characterise these sensations, like why? But we did, because hey, we live in a subject-object world, so everyone says, so we need a SUBJECT to see the OBJECT. I know, I'll make one up! We're good at that.

So the breeze blowing through the sensations is our way of normalising matters. Of showing, actually, these are sensations when observing. That is plain. But isn't it time to give up the pantomime of Observer?
Can we seriously continue to play that game?

Let the winds continue to blow through, and enjoy the shifts that occur all by themselves.
You don't even need to know what's happening.

Share discoveries.

Many thanks!
John

[sencha71]

Nevertheless, there are sensations associated with observing - which is nice. :D

Agreed. I would also say that there is a sensation to just being which can be so pleasurable as to be distracting if you really turn you attention there.

It would never have occurred to us to make up an Observer to characterise these sensations, like why? But we did, because hey, we live in a subject-object world, so everyone says, so we need a SUBJECT to see the OBJECT. I know, I'll make one up! We're good at that.

I can't believe how long it took me to see this. It's as if when I saw through the character, the mind instantly swapped out the fictional persona character with the fictional observer character, and I never saw it happen. Thank you for this!

Let the winds continue to blow through, and enjoy the shifts that occur all by themselves.
You don't even need to know what's happening.

Share discoveries.

I will continue to do this. Oddly, even though I never saw the observer as a problem (apart from wanting to see through it) seeing it to be false has made daily life just flow more easily. Kind of like, if I'd finally learned to effortlessly think and express myself in French versus having to start with what I want to say in English, translate, then speak... Just less latency.

Switching gears, and though this feels like trying to go (metaphorically) from Level 3 to Level 10, I am curious about this passage, which I've read and heard in a variety of forms:

If you begin to be what you are, you will realise everything, but to begin to be what you are, you must come out of what you are not.

You are not those thoughts which are turning, turning in your mind; you are not those changing feelings; you are not the different decisions you make and the different wills you have; you are not that separate ego.

Well then, what are you? You will find when you have come out of what you are not, that the ripple on the water is whispering to you ‘I am That’, the birds in the trees are singing to you ’I am That’, the moon and the stars are shining beacons to you ‘I am That’.

You are in everything in the world and everything in the world is reflected in you, and at the same time you are That – everything.

What an odd place I now find myself. The observer, sort of the last vestige of a character, is leaving, if not already gone. But I can't say that I'm now seeing myself everywhere!

Wishing you a nice remainder of the weekend,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

I can't believe how long it took me to see this. It's as if when I saw through the character, the mind instantly swapped out the fictional persona character with the fictional observer character, and I never saw it happen. Thank you for this!

Cool.

I will continue to do this. Oddly, even though I never saw the observer as a problem (apart from wanting to see through it) seeing it to be false has made daily life just flow more easily. Kind of like, if I'd finally learned to effortlessly think and express myself in French versus having to start with what I want to say in English, translate, then speak... Just less latency.

Also cool. :)

Well then, what are you? You will find when you have come out of what you are not, that the ripple on the water is whispering to you ‘I am That’, the birds in the trees are singing to you ’I am That’, the moon and the stars are shining beacons to you ‘I am That’.

*hint
Folk rarely check their perception of 'identification'.

Wishing you a nice remainder of the weekend,

You too! Nice and sunny here. :)

With best wishes,
John

[sencha71]

*hint
Folk rarely check their perception of 'identification'.

Well I sat with this for a day just to make sure, but nope, that bounced off my forehead like a football! :P

Experientially, I'm not really identifying with anything now, so there's no toehold from which to explore identification, perception of it, etc.

(...but if forced to come up with something I'd say it's tied to perceiving and what is perceived not being able to be separated.)

Thanks as always,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

Well then, what are you? You will find when you have come out of what you are not, that the ripple on the water is whispering to you ‘I am That’, the birds in the trees are singing to you ’I am That’, the moon and the stars are shining beacons to you ‘I am That’.

*hint
Folk rarely check their perception of 'identification'.

Well I sat with this for a day just to make sure, but nope, that bounced off my forehead like a football! :P

Experientially, I'm not really identifying with anything now, so there's no toehold from which to explore identification, perception of it, etc.

(...but if forced to come up with something I'd say it's tied to perceiving and what is perceived not being able to be separated.)

Thanks as always,
Brent

Cool. What could possible identify with the birds singing in the trees?

/John

[sencha71]

What could possible identify with the birds singing in the trees?

I can feel my non-duality "book learning" trying to take over here and have me give what I believe to be the "right" answer. If you identify as "life", then the life here could identify with all life everywhere, including the birds, plants, and really everything (if you assume the organizing intelligence that manifests it all is also "life").

If I pretend I never read that and try to come up with something on my own, I would have zeroed in on the word singing instead of the birds themselves. Something about sound or vibration identifying with all other sound...

Actually even here I think it's book-learning trying to influence the answer again. Remembering a zen teacher striking a stick against the ground and saying "If you understand this.. <CRACK!> you understand everything. If you don't understand this... <CRACK!> you don't understanding anything". Something often felt on the tip of my tongue when contemplating that but the longed for answer has never come.

Thanks as always,
Brent

[s-p-a-c-e]

What could possible identify with the birds singing in the trees?

I can feel my non-duality "book learning" trying to take over here and have me give what I believe to be the "right" answer. If you identify as "life", then the life here could identify with all life everywhere, including the birds, plants, and really everything (if you assume the organizing intelligence that manifests it all is also "life").

If I pretend I never read that and try to come up with something on my own, I would have zeroed in on the word singing instead of the birds themselves. Something about sound or vibration identifying with all other sound...

Actually even here I think it's book-learning trying to influence the answer again. Remembering a zen teacher striking a stick against the ground and saying "If you understand this.. <CRACK!> you understand everything. If you don't understand this... <CRACK!> you don't understanding anything". Something often felt on the tip of my tongue when contemplating that but the longed for answer has never come.

Interesting isn't that we tend to presuppose identification, I could identify as this, as that.
Going back to the question - what could possible identify with...?

Remember the hint: we rarely question the perception of identification.

A Zen master would look at identification and non-identification and just piss herself laughing.

:)

With best wishes,
John