Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,


Do thoughts trigger emotions?

My experience has been that thoughts can trigger emotions, but not always. I also experience that sensations can trigger emotions. And in my vocabulary feelings can trigger emotions - feelings being present moment based while emotions have a time component to them.

Do thoughts trigger fears?

My experience is that thoughts can trigger fears. If I think of something that was scary or would be scary to me, I can feel the emotion of fear. If I think of my ex wife, sometimes I experience fear.

Are any body sensations involved?
Yes, there is often bodily sensations. Usually the specific sensation and location helps me inquire to the emotional state. For example, tightness in my gut may be fear, tightness in my chest fear, tightness in my jaw, shoulders and back is usually a sign I may have anger wanting to move. When I think of my ex wife, my shoulders and chest contract and close as if in a protective manner to my heart and I feel fearful.

How long a gap is there between sensations and thoughts?
In my experience, it depends how in tune with my body I am. If I notice a sensation, and inquire, the information that arises to my awareness about my emotions is immediate, but my inquiry process may take 10 seconds, or a minute if I am not present in my body. So my belief is that the information is there for immediate contact, I just need to access it, which can take some time based on my level of groundedness into my body. When I contact my chest and feel the contraction, a thought arises, what am I scared of ?

All I have for now,
Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike

You say:

My experience has been that thoughts can trigger emotions, but not always. I also experience that sensations can trigger emotions. And in my vocabulary feelings can trigger emotions - feelings being present moment based while emotions have a time component to them.

Do thoughts trigger fears?

My experience is that thoughts can trigger fears. If I think of something that was scary or would be scary to me, I can feel the emotion of fear. If I think of my ex wife, sometimes I experience fear.

Your experiences with fears and emotions are well documented, and your understandings of the bodily sensations are clearly defined.

Today we will look at who is this "I" or "me" that is called Mike. To whom are these fear and emotions occurring? You know something is happening for sure. Yet to whom? or to what?

In my very early posts to you I asked:

Have you ever considered that there is no separate self?
No me?
No I?
When you look for an I, what do you find?
Describe what you find.
What color is this I? smell? taste? texture?

Please answer.

Thanks!

Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

Thanks for your quick reply.

To whom are these fear and emotions occurring? You know something is happening for sure. Yet to whom? or to what?

I have identified this experience as belong to this body, mind, and I associate it with the label Mike. Yet, when I let go of attachments, and see life through a present moment lens of awareness, then fear and emotions are just happening within this experience of life, not necessarily to Mike. The experience of life includes fear and other emotions. That's all.

In my very early posts to you I asked:

Have you ever considered that there is no separate self?
No me?
No I?

Yes, I have, and conceptually of course this isn't hard to accept. However, it seems like I have personalized this experience as mine or belonging only to me, and thus everything that arises happens for or to me, rather than just the experience of life.

When you look for an I, what do you find?
Describe what you find.
What color is this I? smell? taste? texture?

When I look for an I, I just see a human body, there is no bubble with a world of psyche and emotions. I see confusion on my face, like how could this be, there has to be this experience that I am identified with, its what has been happening all these years. Its my world. I feel sadness. I imagine my face looking sad. Like how can this be ? I am confused, I cannot find the I. No taste, no smell, no textures. If not I, then who created this look, this image, these attachments - is it all just mental mechanisms that do these things so the human doesn't feel certain emotions and does feel other emotions ?

I feel a bit lost, disoriented, confused.

Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

When would you guess this identity of "MIKe" began?

Unpack for me how this happened?

Thanks,

Burma

ps---please use the quotes---it makes my responding a bit easier.

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

You wrote,

When would you guess this identity of "MIKe" began?

Oh my, I would guess it happened as soon as came into this world and all the adults around me started saying Mike around me, and then looking for a response from me.

You then wrote,

Unpack for me how this happened?

I probably learned if I responded to this sound Mike that they would respond to my response. I quickly became trained to respond to this sound Mike. I probably received love, affection, smiles, and good feelings of love and safety (I could probably feel their emotions) when I did respond to the sound Mike. I am guessing this went on for some time. Wow, quite the incredibly intelligent way to program a child to respond ! Oh my. By the time I was 2 or 4, I became identified with the sound Mike, and with a sense of separateness too. As years went by, I am guessing the feedback of no, and shaming, and punishment occurred again associated with the sound Mike, and reinforcing the identity of Mike, and the beginning of building a negative view of Mike. In fact, because I felt so unsafe as a child (so many forms of trauma) it was probably safer to back into my own bubble of Mike by being separate from this scary world. Those people seemed scary, they hurt me, they were loud/emotional/physically abusive. Too much for a child to stay in contact with, need safety - separateness probably felt safer than connectedness.

All for now,
Mike

[dottybb]

Thanks Mike

it was probably safer to back into my own bubble of Mike by being separate from this scary world.

Yes.

As you look now can you find this bubble?

Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

you wrote,

As you look now can you find this bubble?

I cant find it visually. But I can imagine how it feels. Withdrawn. Lonely. Separate. Safer. Distanced.

It doesn't actually exist in my reality now in the present moment, but I can imagine and remember the feelings. I think I go there when things get scary for me. But it feels like an illusion of my mind. Its not actually a place, I cant locate it. But I can feel it. Hmm.

Not sure its a feeling in my body though, more of a psychological experience. Wait, the feeling in my body is contracted, not safe, scary.

Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

To Review:
The goal of LU is to reveal the illusion of the separate self. This process exposes the beliefs in an existing separate entity and beliefs in the "I", "me", "myself" inside your body, or outside your body or anywhere. The reality of the apparent body existing and experiencing sensations is not questioned, nor is the reality that your particular body has specific DNA, etc.
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Memories are made up of thoughts about the past, would you agree? And memories are recalled in the present. True?

Withdrawn. Lonely. Separate. Safer. Distanced.

These adjectives are used to describe "Mike" from past memories. Was there ever a separate being "Mike"?
You say:

Not sure its a feeling in my body though, more of a psychological experience. Wait, the feeling in my body is contracted, not safe, scary.

Who or what is labeling "psychological experience"? Could this labeling be a thought? Who or what is thinking?
Are thoughts thinking? Can a thought think?
Are thoughts a problem, or is it believing thoughts are true that creates problems?


Burma

[mountainbykr]

Burma,

Psychological experience is a thought.

Thoughts cannot think. The mind thinks, creating thoughts, this is what minds do.

Not all thoughts are true in my experience.

Believing thoughts creates suffering in my experience.

Believing that i am separate creates suffering. The experience of being separate is created by the mind (psychological mechanisms) to create safety in an unsafe world.

Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

Let's zoom in on "thought"

Psychological experience is a thought.

The mind attempts to manage/control thoughts. Is this possible? Could we agree thoughts come and go in the mind like pop corn popping?

Let's expand this idea of a "Me" or "I" as the doer to questions:
Urges, likes and dislikes
Watch your activities for an hour and report back based on your direct experience where and how urges, likes and dislikes arise.
Is Mike in control of these urges? The urge to breath, the urge to blink, the urge to call a friend,
likes beer, doesn't like eggplant etc., likes jazz, dislikes classical etc.?

You might notice "judging" coming up. Are judgements thoughts too?



Thanks Mike for looking deeply,

Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

After watching my urges, likes, dislikes, I experienced:
- The arising of urges, like hunger for food, urges for a coffee.
- Urges to text a friend and tell them something about what I am doing
- These urges seem to just arise within my awareness and experience - they are locationless

As thinking happens about these dislikes, urges, then I notice :
- Thoughts about how is the action created in response to the urges. The experience was , sometimes action was taken without conscious thoughts to take action.
- Thoughts about how these urges I have observed which seemingly cause the human to do things - like walk to get a coffee.
- Thoughts about the actions the human takes must be sub-conscious - that the human isn't consciously deciding to have these thoughts arise, nor consciously deciding to take action much of the time, the action (breathing, standing up, moving) are often without thought - they just seem to happen.
- Sometimes thoughts did arise , about whether or not to take action. An internal dialogue often insued about what was desired and the pros and cons of taking action - going for a walk outside.
- Judgements did come up, around how this human has little control of many of his actions that seem to happen without thought or consideration.

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

Good observations!

These urges seem to just arise within my awareness and experience - they are locationless

and

how this human has little control of many of his actions that seem to happen without thought or consideration.

Would you consider the possibility that life is happening on its' own, without anyone/anything in charge?

How does this possibly new idea sit with you?


Remember-- your early childhood programming and conditionings have led to beliefs and habits that became entrenched. If you believe there is a separate "me" or "I" you become an object, you objectify yourself (and others) as separate and apart, and therefore claim ownership and doership of "my thoughts, my body, my problems. Look and see if this is true?

Thanks,
Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

Oh my. You wrote,

therefore claim ownership and doership of "my thoughts, my body, my problems. Look and see if this is true?

hmm. This is tough for me. If no one has ownership of this humans actions (some conscious, some unconscious) then how then is this human held accountable (fines, punishments, rewards) that apply specifically to that human ?

It seems the human has thoughts, a body, and experiences. It seems all humans do, but each human has their own somewhat unique experience.

Is this all just life happening over which there are no choices ? My awareness feels like it can make choices, if it can make choices for this human, and only for this human, then doesn't this awareness guide and take care of this human within life ?

Who/what does this childhood conditioning and programming belong to or affect then ? The conditioning and programming are common, but appears this human has some that's separate or different than what the other human sitting next to me may have.

This has me - but yet my mind isn't convinced yet,
Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

This is tough for me. If no one has ownership of this humans actions (some conscious, some unconscious) then how then is this human held accountable (fines, punishments, rewards) that apply specifically to that human ?

It seems the human has thoughts, a body, and experiences. It seems all humans do, but each human has their own somewhat unique experience.

Is this all just life happening over which there are no choices ? My awareness feels like it can make choices, if it can make choices for this human, and only for this human, then doesn't this awareness guide and take care of this human within life ?

Who/what does this childhood conditioning and programming belong to or affect then ? The conditioning and programming are common, but appears this human has some that's separate or different than what the other human sitting next to me may have.

This has me - but yet my mind isn't convinced yet,

It's interesting your "by-line" is Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion"

What is this illusion you are referring to?

I am here to Guide you into having your own Direct Experience via sensations, touching, tasting, smelling, hearing, and watching thoughts. You will find yourself "convinced" via your own direct experiences. There is no other way, otherwise you would be "believing me" instead of knowing directly for yourself. When you know the myth of Santa Clause, you never question again if Santa is real. Same applies to the "myth" of the separate self.

Yes, these questions can be upsetting, "tough" as you say. You are looking at dismantling your conditioning and programming. How would that not be a challenge?

You write about what "seems" to be true, but you must look directly and see if this is true. I am not here to convince you.

We live in a society with rules and regulations. If we break those rules there are consequences. Some people are born with healthy moral compasses that get re-inforced via society, and others are not. We've had over 3000 years of trying to figure this stuff out, and still good and bad things continue to occur.

Yes, each human is unique, so is each snowflake, so is each flower, cloud. Life is constantlyt shifting, changing, as are you and I. And the person sitting next to you.


If your "awareness" feels like it can make choices, why would you not always be content? Do you experience right now being taken care of? If so, what is the Liberation you are seeking?

Please take time to go over our conversations and see if you want to continue with this. Your "Oh MY" indicate perhaps you are uncomfortable? If you want to keep exploring, please tell me why. What exactly do you want that is any different from your life right now?

Thanks!
Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma!

You wrote,

What is this illusion you are referring to?

The illusion of feeling separate, not loveable, not good enough, that I don't belong. The illusion of suffering from feeling these things. As I write this, it is coming into my awareness that these feelings all occur within the experience of life, and that my illusion is that this, life, is suffering. I know I cant control my thoughts. My suffering is really the resistance (or conditioning) to wanting to experience life directly (emotions, feelings, sensations, etc), and the resistance to experiencing these things creates a sense of separateness - but this only exists in the mind - I cant find it anywhere. Its this that feels like suffering - but I cant find this thing called suffering. There is no feeling of separate, but rather its more like no feelings ,numb. This conditioning within my mind, that created some distance or space from experiences that had emotions and feelings I couldn't tolerate as a child is what I have been calling suffering - the experience of no feelings, numb, not connected. Its all happening within life - the experience, the emotions, the resistance to feeling them - this occurs in my body thru sensations. The sense that I am separate - is only occurring in my mind, its not actually occurring anywhere I can find - unless a lack of feelings, a lack of body sensations is then interpreted as feeling separate. And if I cannot control thoughts, that they just arise, as do emotions, and feelings, as does a sense of separateness - then this is just life - not suffering.

You wrote,

Yes, these questions can be upsetting, "tough" as you say. You are looking at dismantling your conditioning and programming. How would that not be a challenge?

Yes, it will be a challenge, I accept it. And I accept sometimes resistance and conditioning will arise, and the experience may be described as tough or disconnected. Or that emotions may also arise during this process, such as : fear, anger, etc.

You wrote,

If your "awareness" feels like it can make choices, why would you not always be content? Do you experience right now being taken care of? If so, what is the Liberation you are seeking?

I am smiling as i read this. My experience is that i am not connected to my awareness at all times, but rather caught in reaction or my unconscious conditioning that makes choices for this human based on previous patterns and experiences that may not be best for me in that moment. Staying more in my awareness will lead me to being more contented. In this moment, i feel i am and can take care of myself, and i feel content. The Liberation i am seeking is from what i labeled suffering, which after looking deeply, i see is an experience in my mind of being separate and disconnected from the present moment and thus my sensations and body. However, i now see this as something the mind created (my conditioning) from old patterns so that i perceived that i would be safe from a scary world. However this thing my mind created didn't actually make the world or life more or less safe - it just created the experience of it being so.

You wrote,
Please take time to go over our conversations and see if you want to continue with this. Your "Oh MY" indicate perhaps you are uncomfortable? If you want to keep exploring, please tell me why. What exactly do you want that is any different from your life right now?

After reviewing our exchanges, yes, i do want to continue this process. Having an experience that is uncomfortable seems appropriate given the material. I want to keep exploring because i can already see the benefits and insights from our exchanges. I am seeing more clearly what is arising in life, and that these things are just happening. Life is here for me to more directly experience without consciously or unconsciously having my mind create the illusion of separateness from this life experience.

My intention (what i want) is to experience life more often without the mind creating the illusion of separateness. I now feel myself smiling and chuckling as i think about the mind creating the illusion of separateness all in the vein of safety - when really im no more safe (only something in the mind has changed), and i would propose less safe because i don't have input from some of my sensations, emotions, and feelings to navigate life.

That's all for now,
Mike