No-self

[JonathanR]

I can cut and paste.

Thank you.

But if I go about thinking I'm no longer an alchoholic and test that theory I will quickly find out I will immediately drink alchoholicly as I have found many times in the past while relapsing.

That's interesting. So does this highlight the place or role of thoughts within the totality of experience?

when I realize the present moment is all there is, the past doesn't exist and any karmic addictive patterns I had do not exist in the present moment.

Yes, it is possible to see the moment, or at least, what is happening right now in any moment. So right now, is it possible to find a 'self' or 'me', experiencing the moment?

Do you notice that there may be thoughts ABOUT 'me' that appear as the looking for self is happening?, or perhaps shortly afterwords?

Did you try the hearing investigation? It would be interesting to know if it is found that in hearing there is simply hearing happening? And also, whether any thoughts appear a the same time?

Jon

[tcrowell]

So does this highlight the place or role of thoughts within the totality of experience? poi

It seems like thoughts have no bearing. If I have an seemingly uncontrollable(unconscious) desire to drink, all the sayings and pointers of AA have had no effect in preventing me from drinking. It is on whether I don't want to or not.

So right now, is it possible to find a 'self' or 'me', experiencing the moment?

No. Once I look for the me, experience disappears. I can't focus on two things at one time. I can go back and forth but not look for me and then experience the moment.

I did the hearing experiment and also saw that I couldn't find what was hearing. There was nothing there just like with looking for what was noticing this "me."

[JonathanR]

. It seems like thoughts have no bearing. If I have an seemingly uncontrollable(unconscious) desire to drink, all the sayings and pointers of AA have had no effect in preventing me from drinking. It is on whether I don't want to or not.

Is there a 'me' that doesn't want to drink or not?

. No. Once I look for the me, experience disappears. I can't focus on two things at one time. I can go back and forth but not look for me and then experience the moment.

So is it that the immediate experience of the moment is without reference to self, I or me?

. I did the hearing experiment and also saw that I couldn't find what was hearing. There was nothing there just like with looking for what was noticing this "me."

Good. Is it clear that there is no self to be found anywhere in experience?

Thanks,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Is there a 'me' that doesn't want to drink or not?
No.
So is it that the immediate experience of the moment is without reference to self, I or me?
Yes.
Good. Is it clear that there is no self to be found anywhere in experience?
Yes.

[JonathanR]

We have spoken of seeing and hearing. You may like to look at each of the five senses? We didnt speak of Touch, tase and smell. In each case, is there a 'self' that 'experiences' these?


Ok. Good. Let's move on to consider how things happen.

Do you make anything happen?

What about Choices between alternatives?

What about Decision's?


Regards,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Do you make anything happen?

No, things happen and they are noticed.


What about Choices between alternatives?
Choices are probably just a matter of conditioned responses and no one is making a choice.

What about Decision's?
Same. No one is making the decision.

[JonathanR]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply. I need to let you know that for work reasons I will be traveling abroad tomorrow and as I have found before there may not be wifii available. I will try to post during the week but there may well be a break in the flow of replies. I will be back for sure on 11 June.
My apologies for any delays.

. What about Choices between alternatives?
Choices are probably just a matter of conditioned responses and no one is making a choice.

What about Decision's?
Same. No one is making the decision.

Would you say that you have arrived at this view by logical deduction? Its perfectly possible to reason and believe that this is the case and this is fine, as far as reasoning goes.

Its necessary for this inquiry to see thesecthings beyond a shadow of a doubt though. So here is one exercise that I hope you will try? It must be actually done for real...

Place both hands palm down on a table. In a moment one must be lifted above your head whilst the other remains face down on the table. Conventionally it is said that 'I choise' between hands. But it is possible to look for the moment of choice, the choice-point, where the choice is supposedly made. So try this exercise. One hand must go up. Look for the exact moment of choice.


Regards,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Thank you for letting me know you may not be posting. I appreciate all you have done so far in such a timely and consistent manner. You have been a great help and I will know that if I don't hear from you everything is Ok. Without a me, no upset happens because who would it be happening too? Have a good trip and I hope it is fruitful for you.

Yes the understanding of choices was conceptual but I could really see it from the experiment you suggested. A hand went up and there was nothing deciding which hand went up. Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hi,

Thank you for letting me know you may not be posting. I appreciate all you have done so far in such a timely and consistent manner. You have been a great help and I will know that if I don't hear from you everything is Ok.

Thanks you for saying this. I appreciate it very much. I have been very busy actually but will be able to post again more regularly when I'm home.

Without a me, no upset happens because who would it be happening too?

So true, and yet even as this is seen old patterns or habits can still repeat themselves. I think this is what you were saying to me recently?

So that literally nobody 'overeats' but still overeating happens and the body gets bloated! (This is one of my addictions). Its worth looking at such moments to see if there seems to be a more pronounced feeling of 'I' going on at these times.

Have a good trip and I hope it is fruitful for you.

Thanks again. Yes, its going well.

Free will, Intention and Decisions are also interesting.

Investigating decisions is revealing. Let's say you need to use the car. There is a realisation that the car keys are not in the usual place and then looking for car keys ensues. This turns out to be fairly involved but eventually the keys are found and the car can be started. Do you see that the whole scenario could happen without a self deciding anything? That the whole sequence could happen on autopilot or automatically? That this is how choices and decisions happen, automatically, only sometimes with a thought 'I decided', 'I chose'?

Find a real scenario to examine, maybe a car journey? Take a look at all the possible points at which a choice or decision might be supposed to be needed and see if things are simply just happening?

Regards,

Jon

[tcrowell]

I will look further at investigating decisions. A good one is after finishing dinner when I want to eat more and go to look for something more to eat. Look at the point that I see something (I don't need) that I want to eat.

[JonathanR]

. I will look further at investigating decisions. A good one is after finishing dinner when I want to eat more and go to look for something more to eat. Look at the point that I see something (I don't need) that I want to eat.

Sounds good. That is interesting.

With decisions, whatever is going on, walking down the street for example, will work. It doesn't have to be something that is desired or disliked. But the investigation you mention would be interesting too. Its definitely possible to notice feelings like these.

Let me know if you can find a decider deciding?

Regards.

Jon

[tcrowell]

I will try that.

[JonathanR]

Thank you. I will wait to hear from you.

All the best,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Yesterday, I noticed what was deciding while vacuuming and driving. It was noticed that no one was deciding when it came to decide which chair to pull out and how far to vacuum underneath. An arm pulled out the chair and took it back this far. When driving, what decides to let the guy at the stop sign go or does my car go first? Nothing decided. In fact I'm still there because I am too locked up in the decision and can't move!!!!! Arggggggghhhhh!!!!! Just kidding. Somehow something happened but there was nothing perceivable that decided. Another added benefit besides the lesson learned was that I get out of mind when I'm not there deciding. I'm not way off in future events or replaying past events. There is vacuuming or driving and I'm seeing clearly what is around me and feelings and sensations going on in me.

[JonathanR]

Yesterday, I noticed what was deciding while vacuuming and driving. It was noticed that no one was deciding when it came to decide which chair to pull out and how far to vacuum underneath. An arm pulled out the chair and took it back this far. When driving, what decides to let the guy at the stop sign go or does my car go first? Nothing decided. In fact I'm still there because I am too locked up in the decision and can't move!!!!! Arggggggghhhhh!!!!! Just kidding. Somehow something happened but there was nothing perceivable that decided. Another added benefit besides the lesson learned was that I get out of mind when I'm not there deciding. I'm not way off in future events or replaying past events. There is vacuuming or driving and I'm seeing clearly what is around me and feelings and sensations going on in me.

How great! I like the surreal image of someone locked up in decision :-)

It is very good to notice this quality of seeing what is happening in the moment, feelings and sensations going on right now.

Try to find the opportunity to go for a walk in Nature or at least a park. This could be by the sea or in the countryside or as I say, a local park. Somewhere where nature is happening, sun shining, wind, clouds, weather, trees, grass, people, animals, insects, flowers. The whole shebang, going off all at once with you in there too, with feelings, sensations, thoughts happening, as they naturally tend to do.. you don't have to feel anything extreme or imaginary, just notice all the life going on. Once you have started to notice all this, take a look for a boundary or edge between 'you' and 'everything else'. Is it possible to find such a line, where you end and everything else begins?

Thanks.

Jon