Help

[neeeel]

You know what Neeeel, you may be right! I think it is fear. Can't understand how I never saw this earlier, as I always mistook it as depression along with its physical symptoms.
So what do I do now that I have identified it as such. What good is knowing or giving a label to this emotion which consists of physical sensations and thoughts. I have tried to look for the source and couldn't see clearly whether there was a me doing this or not. All that comes up when I look without intellectualising about it and coming up with an answer with words, is a blank state! moreover the intensity doesn't seem to lessen either....pls help

Well, doesnt depression mean that you are depressing the emotions, not letting them out? Theres probably a whole mix of stuff in there that is hard to identify. I know there was for me.

You have probably been taught that fear, and anger, and such like, are "bad", are negative emotions. when all they are is just energy and sensation. Neither good nor bad.

Spend some time looking at the physical sensations, without labelling them good or bad, fear or happiness. Allow them to be what they are. Try and notice what they are, eg "tightness of chest" "Now rush of blood " " Now heavyness in stomach" etc .
If you were doing them, you could stop doing them. But they are already there! Its just your body reacting to some stimulus, or some thought. Fear is a natural mechanism, it keeps you alive when threatened. So your fear is just a response to something threatening in the environment, or to a threatening thought. At the moment, you believe the content of the threatening thoughts, and so the automatic response is fear. Then there will be a thought of "I shouldnt be feeling this or thinking this" which will cause further fear, and so the vicious cycle will start.


At some point though, we need to re-focus on looking to see if no self is true. Me telling you all this stuff probably doesnt help in the slightest.
It may be hard for you to focus on the looking again, but that is what we need to do here. If you want to take a break until you feel better, thats fine.

Let me know what you think

[kite]

Yes, I feel depression is of the emotions, but I don't know better to let them out or keep steady focus on them.
I really don't get what exactly is threatening. Cant seem to see the environmental stimuli or the thought that cause fear.
No, I don't want a break! I want out! I have been watching these sensation for ages now as taught by mindfulness mediation and it hasn't helped in the least so far, or if it has made a difference, then it's negligible. Can you give me one thing to focus on and I'll stick to that as I find it very difficult to manage thoughts, emotions, sensations, sense perceptions, etc. together. Or if it has to be that way then give me an all inclusive direction that would help penetrate them all together, but simple.

[neeeel]

No, I don't want a break! I want out! I have been watching these sensation for ages now as taught by mindfulness mediation and it hasn't helped in the least so far, or if it has made a difference, then it's negligible.

this could be part of the problem of why its so hard for you. You want out. And so you try and look. And then when you feel that you arent getting anywhere, you get upset because this was your last hope, etc. Instead of focusing on what and where to look, you are focusing on whether the looking is causing a lessening of depression.

Instead of looking whether no self is true or not, you are looking at whether your depression is lessening.

Can you give me one thing to focus on and I'll stick to that as I find it very difficult to manage thoughts, emotions, sensations, sense perceptions, etc. together. Or if it has to be that way then give me an all inclusive direction that would help penetrate them all together, but simple.

I made 3 posts yesterday which I think you should read to pick up on where you got to before you felt low.

You had noticed that

then by further paying attention there was this slowing down of the process, which allowed me to see that there was something in between the sights & sounds and me recieving them, or better put just after the experience occurred there was that something which made the two feel distinct: It was none other than THOUGHT again! There was this thought (albeit a very quick and momentary one) that 'I' was receiving these inputs, More like a flashing image of myself receiving them rather than words or a description as such.

And were asking if I thought it was the truth, to which I replied

I hardly started the process and have come to this conclusion. Can you tell me if it's too premature or is it the truth?

Why dont you tell me? Is it the truth that there is the experience of a sound, and then a thought or mental picture pops up claiming that theres an "I" that received the sound?

Remember, looking, not thinking, is the way to go.

And

I'm usually quite sensitive to sounds and keen easily be annoyed with the disharmonious ones, which may be a pendulum effect to absolutely in love with sounds that I find pleasant like music.

Another pointer that may help. What is the difference between a disharmonious sound, and a pleasant one?
What is it that makes one sound disharmonious, and one sound pleasant?

Just to note again on the above pointer, this is not a koan for mental contemplation, but for you to actively look at, investigate :D

So when you are ready, take a look at these questions, and start looking again.

So tell me, Is it the truth that there is the experience of a sound, and then a thought or mental picture pops up claiming that theres an "I" that received the sound?




.

[kite]

this could be part of the problem of why its so hard for you. You want out

Don't you think that is natural after suffering for so long. I mean isn't it the most normal thing to move away from pain inspite of all the teachings that ask you to befriend it, put out the welcome matt, embrace it etc. et.

Instead of looking whether no self is true or not, you are looking at whether your depression is lessening

That's not entirely true. I do focus a lot on wahts been asked, although my attention is not unswerving and it does go into thought especially those that expect the result, which again I feel is natural, isn't it? I mean if there was no purpose to this enquiry (which for me is to be free from suffering) then I wouldn't be doing it would I?

So tell me, Is it the truth that there is the experience of a sound, and then a thought or mental picture pops up claiming that theres an "I" that received the sound?

Actually it's not true as it is only another thought as the description of what was thought to be happening. I cannot come up with a deep answer without using another thought so there is no answer coming up at all when I ask this question....

[neeeel]

Actually it's not true as it is only another thought as the description of what was thought to be happening. I cannot come up with a deep answer without using another thought so there is no answer coming up at all when I ask this question....

Im not asking you to come up with a deep answer. Its a simple yes or no. You observed sounds, and then you observed a quick and subtle thought immediately afterwards, that claimed that I was receiving the inputs?

Its no good asking me if its true or not. You need to look for yourself.

If you are unsure, you can always look again. Thats the whole idea. Yes, there may now be a whole lot of confusing thoughts going round and round about this. But you can always go back and check that its true, or not true.

[kite]

Yes, I'm sorry if I sounded confused but I think I really am now....I just don't understand how to really look anymore. The thoughts are that overwhelming and distracting. So I don't know what or where to look regarding ......

Neeeel wrote: "But you can always go back and check that its true, or not true."

[neeeel]

Yes, I'm sorry if I sounded confused but I think I really am now....I just don't understand how to really look anymore. The thoughts are that overwhelming and distracting. So I don't know what or where to look regarding ......

Neeeel wrote: "But you can always go back and check that its true, or not true."

Do what you did when you had this insight. What were you doing, and how did you do it?

Look at the thoughts that are overwhelming and distracting and confusing. Are you doing them? Is the same thing happening with them? Observe how the thoughts just keep coming, observe how the mind is groping around for answers.

You said

then by further paying attention there was this slowing down of the process, which allowed me to see that there was something in between the sights & sounds and me recieving them, or better put just after the experience occurred there was that something which made the two feel distinct

So I would suggest that by paying attention again, you will see the same thing happening again. It may be harder to pay attention when theres a maelstrom of thoughts going on, but its what you are going to have to do. Use these thoughts to look. Pay attention to them, and try to ignore the content.


If its easier with sounds, I would say try that instead. You havent answered a question I asked a couple of times previously

I'm usually quite sensitive to sounds and keen easily be annoyed with the disharmonious ones, which may be a pendulum effect to absolutely in love with sounds that I find pleasant like music.

Another pointer that may help. What is the difference between a disharmonious sound, and a pleasant one?
What is it that makes one sound disharmonious, and one sound pleasant?

so look at sounds. Is there a sound, and an experiencer of the sound? What makes one sound disharmonious, and one sound pleasant?

Come on, you can do this. you need to look though.

[kite]

at is the difference between a disharmonious sound, and a pleasant one?

No difference is seen except that when there is a pleasant sound there is a pleasant sensation ion the body accompanying it and when there is an unpleasant sound there is a corresponding negative sensations. Also there are thoughts occuring sometimes which say "what a lovely tune, melody etc" or "Why the hell, can't they turn that off, be quiet, can't stand this sound etc"

In both cases however there is no one hearing sounds but sounds are happening. That however does not change anything with regards to what I mentioned above though.

Even the screaming thoughts don't have a 'thinker' as I really looked to find one but couldn't find anyone doind the thoughts, and if there was a thought about 'I', then that is recognised as just that: another 'I' thought.

However I can't help but notice that an extremely uncomfortable sensation which is like a cross between heaviness & extreme fatigue still persists throughout the day. Just feel so despondent and hopeless without 'anyone' doing that too

[neeeel]

at is the difference between a disharmonious sound, and a pleasant one?

No difference is seen except that when there is a pleasant sound there is a pleasant sensation ion the body accompanying it and when there is an unpleasant sound there is a corresponding negative sensations. Also there are thoughts occuring sometimes which say "what a lovely tune, melody etc" or "Why the hell, can't they turn that off, be quiet, can't stand this sound etc"

Ok, so the only difference is that there are different sensations, and different thoughts. Which comes first, the sensations or the thoughts?
Does a noise have an inherent property of pleasant or disharmonious? Or do we assign that property to what is simply a wave of energy? If you simply focus on the disharmonious noise, without classifying it , is it then disharmonious? Does the environment, the sound, give a shit how you classify it?

Who is it that "cant stand this sound"?

In both cases however there is no one hearing sounds but sounds are happening. That however does not change anything with regards to what I mentioned above though.

Not sure what you mean. Doesnt change anything with regards to what?

Even the screaming thoughts don't have a 'thinker' as I really looked to find one but couldn't find anyone doind the thoughts, and if there was a thought about 'I', then that is recognised as just that: another 'I' thought.

If you really recognise that thoughts dont have a thinker, sounds dont have a hearer, then who is assigning tags such as "disharmonious" sound, "screaming" thought? If no one is doing the thoughts, then why are they assigned any more importance than , say, the digestive functions. You are not doing them either. But you dont endlessly agonise over what your digestive functions mean.

Who is assigning importance to thoughts? Who believes the thoughts?

You hear a sound-> thought pops up "disharmonious sound, I really dont like it" -> ?

[kite]

Yes, I agree. There is no harmonious or disharmonious sound until the judgement pops up. Having looked I feel that sensations occur before the thought about it although this process is too fast for me to discern that yet.

What I meant when I said it doesn't change anything is that it doesn't ease the negativity about about the sound. I'm not sure if it is the sense of self that doesn't like the sound or is it just not liking. If there is truly no self then how can it really not stand the sound or anything else for that matter?

Why can't the tags also be happening as part of all happening? I can't get why at times there are pointers given that point to no self, but when any negative judgement happens the then there is an 'I' assigned to that. I have looked and looked and found that all this judgement of sound and the sometimes imagined ownership of that is also just happening. It can't be part part. All is happening whether it is sometimes believed otherwise, which is also just happening. Hope this makes sense but it's so difficult to put into words.

Belief in thoughts are also just happening. And this time I'm not just repeating words but truly can't see otherwise?
Please tell me if I'm wrong. It may sound like I'm boasting of knowing this but honestly I feel this to be the case, although I will continue to look. Maybe there will be further discoveries and things which are missed could come to light

[neeeel]

What I meant when I said it doesn't change anything is that it doesn't ease the negativity about about the sound. I'm not sure if it is the sense of self that doesn't like the sound or is it just not liking. If there is truly no self then how can it really not stand the sound or anything else for that matter?

But thats just it!!! Seeing no self is not about easing the negativity. Its about seeing that the negativity itself is being done by noone. I still have negative thoughts, and negative feelings. Loads of them.

Theres no you to stop the negativity.

These thoughts are happening, and will continue to happen.
The point is to see that the thought "I hate that sound" or "I am so fucking useless" or "No one likes me " are just stuff that come up, and no more important than a burp, or your stomach rumbling. If you see that no-one is doing it, that its just due to stimuli triggering beliefs and conditioning, then why do "you" care about the content of a thought? Who is it that cares about the content of a thought?

Why can't the tags also be happening as part of all happening? I can't get why at times there are pointers given that point to no self, but when any negative judgement happens the then there is an 'I' assigned to that. I have looked and looked and found that all this judgement of sound and the sometimes imagined ownership of that is also just happening. It can't be part part. All is happening whether it is sometimes believed otherwise, which is also just happening. Hope this makes sense but it's so difficult to put into words.

Yes, of course the tags, the labelling, the negative thoughts, are all part of all happening. The belief that there is a self, is happening on its own, automatically. the labels, the negative thoughts, are all happening automatically. Watch it in operation. Walk down the street, and watch how whatever you look at, almost immediately there will be a judgement or labelling thought. Either naming the thing that you see, or judging it according to societal conditioning, or creating a story about the thing you see. All happening spontaneously and automatically.

Watch how thoughts come up judging other thoughts. You think "That guy is stupid" and then another thought comes up "I shouldnt think like that" ,then you feel guilty.
Whereas , you know that you are not doing your thoughts, so both "that guy is stupid" and "I shouldnt think like that" rise and fade away, pass through like clouds across the sky, without either being accorded significance or attached to. Neither is judged as good or bad thoughts.

Belief in thoughts are also just happening. And this time I'm not just repeating words but truly can't see otherwise?

Yes. belief in thoughts are also just happening. Theres no you to believe them. Just an organism, a meat bag, that responds automatically to stimuli.
So I am guessing you are wondering, "how can I get free if there is no one here to do anything"?

When you were a child and you believed in santa, you believed the thoughts about him right?
Then when you were shown proof, or told, that he didnt exist, did thoughts of santa stop? Thoughts of santa, whatever they may be, still arise at christmas time, even now I am guessing.

Did you have to unlearn anything, or re-learn anything? I am guessing that no, you didnt, that when thoughts of santa come up, you dismiss them.

Its the same with the self. You have been brought up believing that theres a separate entity that is controlling your body and living your life. Now you have looked, and at least partially seen that stuff is just happening, that its just a body and brain on automatic, then when thoughts of "I" come up, they can be dismissed because you know they are not true!
There is no need to attach significance to any particular thought, because they are just automatic responses to stimuli.

I feel reluctant to talk about this because it seems to me that, if you have seen it clearly, then this all becomes blazingly obvious, and if you havent seen it, I dont want to be putting words into your mouth, or set you off thinking about stuff, rather than looking.

Anyway, I think you are doing well and are starting to get some insight into all of this.
So spend as much time as you can throughout the day looking at thoughts, watching the automatic labelling occur, watching the judging occur.

[kite]

Wow! Thank you master.

Happy Guru Purnima (today is the full moon day where in India the master ir revered and honoured by the student. In this case of course there is no Master or Student except as stories appearing in the mind, but I still need to show my respect for the one Guru that helps Itself through this apparent duality

[kite]

I'm going for an insight mediation retreat tomo for 3 days. They will basically be advising breath and body mindfulness techniques.
Any tips on how to integrate that with what I'm doing now?

[neeeel]

I dont know for sure, but I would guess its very similar, or the same, as what you have been doing already. Observing thoughts and sensations and seeing that you arent doing them

[kite]

Thanks,

Also lately I've been suffering from insomnia for some time now (before I discovered LU). Lately it's getting worse as I'm having rampant thoughts. I feel the thoughts are getting more in intensity and it's getting torturous. I hope this enquiry is not making it so, as it needs to slow down soon as I feel I'm going mad (due to lack of sleep adding to it)