Seeing What is True

[b0dhi]

Hiya Lynn

Good going with those explanations - they've given me a lot of clarity for us to start deepening your investigation. Great work!!

To me, separation means perceiving myself, other people, and all objects as separate, autonomous and distinct from each other. My definition of a separate self is perceiving and experiencing myself as an entity that is separate from all other separate selves and objects. The opposite of that would be experiencing myself as the same, in essence, as all people and all things—and knowing that we are all different and unique in appearance, but in essence the same one interconnected, interrelated Being.

Good definition and I am in agreement. We shall be looking to find "separation" at some point so it's nice to have the statement above as reference.

The main way I sense a self is through the voice in my head and the senses.

If I rest as the Awareness doing the looking, it sees that all this phenomena is occurring in Awareness and is pervaded by Awareness, none of it is separate from that. There is just thinking/sensing happening in the field of Awareness, and with looking I can't find a "thing" or a "self" it refers to. Yet, the overwhelming habit is to go through life feeling as though it refers to a separate self. For example, if something is said or done that makes the separate self look bad, there is a feeling reaction such as anger, embarrassment, shame, as though it is referring to some one.

A few questions around this.
1. Who is aware of awareness?
2. The reaction that the separate self has to circumstances and events - who has a choice or control over that reaction?

I have an expectation that if I see through it all the way, I will no longer listen to and believe the voice in my head, unless needed, and it will therefore stop going on incessantly and I can rest in peace.

3. Is it possible to put this expectation aside for now because it may divert your inquiry? Let's just focus on what appears in the inquiry and accurately observe the results - having an expectation will colour that observation. Rather than look for what is expected, let's look at what IS.

I also have an expectation that through inquiry and abiding in true self, consciousness will eventually separate itself completely from identification as a self—and that is true liberation.

4. Same for this - let's see if we can put it aside?

I will be hiking in nature all day today and will just LOOK and WATCH at all the passing phenomena I take to be a self.

Wonderful - let me know how it went :)

[Lightwins]

1. Who is aware of awareness?
2. The reaction that the separate self has to circumstances and events - who has a choice or control over that reaction?

1. Awareness is aware of Awareness.
2. It seems that the reactions come from all causes and conditions creating them. There isn't anyone who has choice or control over the reactions. However, it appears as though there is choice in how I respond to the reactions. I can go with them, believe them and Identify with them, OR I can allow them to be without pushing them away or following them. And when I do the later, then they are dissolved or transformed. The only "I" that can neither go with the reaction nor push it away, it Awareness itself. The "ego mechanism" can only grasp or push away. So the "true choice" comes from true nature, not a self, and the more I rest as my deeper nature, the more the reactions can be allowed and liberated. Any involvement by ego-identified consciousness will only sustain the reactions, and a sense of separate self.

Is it possible to put this expectation aside for now because it may divert your inquiry? Let's just focus on what appears in the inquiry and accurately observe the results - having an expectation will colour that observation. Rather than look for what is expected, let's look at what IS.

3 and 4. Yes, I am willing to put these expectations aside. I will do my best to be aware of them when they arise. The truth is I really don't know where this is going or what the result will actually be.

I am continuing to BE the looking and watch all that arises. So far, the main thing I've gotten from this is that I am experiencing more distance from the arisings of an apparent separate self. I am more the observer of it than being it.

[b0dhi]

Hey Lynn

Apologies for my delayed response, I'm moving between locations at present and got a little tied up.

1. Awareness is aware of Awareness.

Beautiful.

There isn't anyone who has choice or control over the reactions. However, it appears as though there is choice in how I respond to the reactions.

Please describe how this choice occurs, and how you are in control.

I am experiencing more distance from the arisings of an apparent separate self. I am more the observer of it than being it.

Excellent - keep pushing on.

I'd like to go deeper into the relationship between "you" and awareness. You say "I am awareness". Where does this separate self appear - within awareness or outside of it? Are there two things (awareness and self) or is it one thing (awareness/self).

Thanks Lynn - looking forward to hearing from you as always :)

[Lightwins]

Hi Bodhi,
I hope your move is going smoothly!

It appears as though there is choice in how I respond to the reactions.

Please describe how this choice occurs, and how you are in control.

If I look closely, I see that the choice to respond to reactions just occurs—like how it just occurs that I notice when I am lost in thought. "I" don't do that, it just happens. So it seems that the choice to either rest and allow the reaction, or to go with it and get caught up in it just happens too. This gets a little scary! I am starting to see that there is no control here! There is no one in charge of the spiritual awakening process, or in control of anything. I need to contemplate this more.

I'd like to go deeper into the relationship between "you" and awareness. You say "I am awareness". Where does this separate self appear - within awareness or outside of it? Are there two things (awareness and self) or is it one thing (awareness/self).

The separate self appears within awareness. There are not two things, self and awareness, but it can appear as though there is. If I look deeply, I always and only end up with awareness. All appearances such as thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. appear in awareness and are pervaded by awareness. However, awareness can become an identity that eventually needs to be let go of. There is ultimately no self anywhere. At least that is what I have heard from my teacher.

Thank you for the question involving control. I will stay with that. It is mind blowing to think that there is really no "one" in control!
In gratitude,
Lynn Marie

[b0dhi]

It's all going well Lynn - thanks :)

You've done some wonderful and insightful looking and I loved your last response.

However, awareness can become an identity that eventually needs to be let go of.

I'm so glad you discovered this yourself, it is what I wanted to make sure that you got. It is easy to slip from "I am a separate self" to "I am awareness" and completely miss the "I am not a self at all - there is no self".

Hence when you look and see that there is nothing but awareness, and that awareness is self-aware, then really it is not about a self being aware. There is no "self" that owns or controls awareness, there is only awareness.

I am starting to see that there is no control here! There is no one in charge of the spiritual awakening process, or in control of anything.

Lol - yes this gets a little bit "scary". However, it has always been the case - the underlying truth has always been the truth, it is only now that you are looking to see that there is nobody home. There is only this "ISNESS".

I need to contemplate this more.

Thank you for the question involving control. I will stay with that. It is mind blowing to think that there is really no "one" in control!

You are most welcome!

Here's a few things to mull over for you in regard to choice and control:

Do you have the choice of being aware? Can you switch it off? Did you choose to be aware?

Can you control your senses? For instance can you choose to not see? BTW closing your eyes does not count as this only means seeing the inside of your eyelids :)

Can you control your thoughts? Can you choose to only have happy thoughts for a whole day, or no random thoughts? Can you switch off thoughts at will?

Can you find something inside you that is in control of life? Can you find a "you" that is in charge?

Looking forward to your further exploration. My warmest as always :)

[Lightwins]

Thank you for these inquiries. They have been really powerful. I am getting more of a sense of there being no self and no control. Today I felt a great deal of deep peace and blissful Presence. There is a deeper level of relaxation that may be a result of opening a little more to the truth of no self.

Do you have the choice of being aware? Can you switch it off? Did you choose to be aware?

No choice of being aware. It cannot be switched off.

Can you control your senses? For instance can you choose to not see? BTW closing your eyes does not count as this only means seeing the inside of your eyelids :)

No, I cannot choose not to see...or hear. I cannot choose to turn on or off an of the senses.

Can you control your thoughts? Can you choose to only have happy thoughts for a whole day, or no random thoughts? Can you switch off thoughts at will?

I have been trying to control thoughts for 45 years or so, and it is obvious I can't do it. However, I can choose to have happy thoughts, or stop thought, temporarily. I seem to be able to switch off thoughts at will for a brief period of time.

Can you find something inside you that is in control of life? Can you find a "you" that is in charge?

I haven't found a "me" that is in control of life yet! It is still a little freaky to think that no one is in control. If there is no Lynn the spiritual seeker in charge of awakening and making all the effort towards that, then it is all just happening. And there is nothing "I" can do about it. If this is the truth, then I am open to seeing it. I just want to see what's true.

Thank you Bodhi. This is really helpful!

[b0dhi]

Hiya Lynn!!

Thank you for these inquiries. They have been really powerful.

Most welcome :) You're going fabulously!!

However, I can choose to have happy thoughts, or stop thought, temporarily. I seem to be able to switch off thoughts at will for a brief period of time.

Is there a self that you can find who chooses to do this? If not, where is the choice coming from?

If there is no Lynn the spiritual seeker in charge of awakening and making all the effort towards that, then it is all just happening. And there is nothing "I" can do about it. If this is the truth, then I am open to seeing it. I just want to see what's true.

If there is no self, then you have answered your own question :)

Choice and control are inexorably linked. For a "you" to have choice and control, that "you" must first exist, right?

Look deeply into this Lynn and please share what comes up.

My warmest wishes as always.

[Lightwins]

However, I can choose to have happy thoughts, or stop thought, temporarily. I seem to be able to switch off thoughts at will for a brief period of time.

Is there a self that you can find who chooses to do this? If not, where is the choice coming from?

My teacher has said that all thought activity happens as a result of "causes and conditions." But I don't know that in my own direct experience. When I look, I see that there really isn't any control. Thoughts happen and sometimes there is a choice to stop them, or rest in awareness, but that appears to just happen. Sometimes negative thoughts are changed to more positive thoughts or dropped, but that also appears to just happen.

I am noticing some differences in my experience as I am opening to the truth that there is no self or control. At times, I notice I feel more relaxation and peace, and at other times I feel lost, like "what now?" I have also noticed not reacting to things that would have caused a reaction like self-judgment. There is less identification as a personal self. And, I am noticing that I am wasting more time on useless activities. I am less interested in being an avid spiritual practitioner trying to get somewhere. So I'm not making that kind of effort. But I am interested in inquiry into what is true.

Thank you for your support with this. It is vitally important to me.

[b0dhi]

Hi Lynn

Great work, I can see that your insight is deepening. That's wonderful :)

My teacher has said that all thought activity happens as a result of "causes and conditions." But I don't know that in my own direct experience. When I look, I see that there really isn't any control. Thoughts happen and sometimes there is a choice to stop them, or rest in awareness, but that appears to just happen. Sometimes negative thoughts are changed to more positive thoughts or dropped, but that also appears to just happen.

There's a lot of "just happening" happening, isn't there? Notice how thoughts always happen after the event. For instance a choice is made and then the thought machine sparks up taking credit for the choice, perhaps even congratulating the "you" for making such a great choice.

As you rest in awareness, in your words, note how thoughts are creating a very believable world in which there is a "you" and "other" and "agendas" and "activities"....many stories about Lynn and the World.

The origin of the thoughts itself....well, can't be found. "Causes and conditions"? As good an explanation as others I suppose :) I would encourage you to look deeply for yourself - your direct realisation is the key.

I am noticing some differences in my experience as I am opening to the truth that there is no self or control. At times, I notice I feel more relaxation and peace, and at other times I feel lost, like "what now?" I have also noticed not reacting to things that would have caused a reaction like self-judgment. There is less identification as a personal self. And, I am noticing that I am wasting more time on useless activities. I am less interested in being an avid spiritual practitioner trying to get somewhere. So I'm not making that kind of effort.

One of the signs of "gating", that is the direct realisation of no-self, is that seeking drops away. The "spiritual seeker" is also part of the story, the illusion created by thoughts. What is left to find when there is nobody to find it?

But I am interested in inquiry into what is true.

What is true for you now Lynn? What has changed during our conversation?

Thank you for your support with this. It is vitally important to me.

It's my pleasure dear Lynn :)

[Lightwins]

There's a lot of "just happening" happening, isn't there? Notice how thoughts always happen after the event. For instance a choice is made and then the thought machine sparks up taking credit for the choice, perhaps even congratulating the "you" for making such a great choice.

The thoughts and then the taking credit for the thoughts or choice, etc. seems to be happening simultaneously as well as after. There is an almost continuous identification as a self involved with thought. But I have been more of a witnessing of that while doing this inquiry. If there is a witnessing of the identification, then there is something beyond the identification. This is taking vigilance. But I can also see that Lynn did not decide to be vigilant. it is just happening.

As you rest in awareness, in your words, note how thoughts are creating a very believable world in which there is a "you" and "other" and "agendas" and "activities"....many stories about Lynn and the World.

Yes, it is creating a world continuously, unless I am deeply resting, then there is just silence, but that is not for long. However, there is often a background of Silent Presence while the thoughts go on and on about an imagined someone. This makes it more possible to see it all happening without getting caught up in it.

I am contemplating no control each day. If there is no control, then the "seeker" feels like giving up, and does not know what to do. So, I just watch and look at what is happening. And there does not appear to be any choice in that. That is just what Consciousness is choosing to do now.

The origin of the thoughts itself....well, can't be found. "Causes and conditions"? As good an explanation as others I suppose :) I would encourage you to look deeply for yourself - your direct realisation is the key.

I find it disturbing, and frustrating, that no one knows the origin of thought. I am looking deeply, and I don't know where it is coming from! Looking for myself, I see the origin of a my experience, or ground, is Pure Awareness, and I see that everything arises out of that and is pervaded by that. That's all I know. So thought appears to be an expression of Pure Awareness, like everything else. And, it seems to have an intelligence that is personal to my life/thoughts/conditioning/personality/situation.

I will continue looking!
Thank you!
Lynn

[b0dhi]

Hi Lynn

Apologies I am late in my response, busy wrapping up a life here in Africa to move. I will be getting on a flight in about 24 hours time, so may be unavailable after that for 48 hours or so. I'll do my best to respond as early as possible to you :)

I am contemplating no control each day. If there is no control, then the "seeker" feels like giving up, and does not know what to do. So, I just watch and look at what is happening. And there does not appear to be any choice in that. That is just what Consciousness is choosing to do now.

Good work! Whatever you think you are choosing or making a choice about, examine deeply. Is there really a you doing the choosing or is the choice appearing. Is whatever that's happening being done, or is it just happening?

What choice do you feel you have? Do you choose your thoughts? Did you choose your brain? What about your body? Did you choose the colour of the eyes? The length of the third finger? Do you choose to breathe? Or to digest your food? Did you choose to be alive?

Look deeply - choice is an illusion created by the false self. There is no choice - there is no separate self choosing. It is all an unfolding.

I find it disturbing, and frustrating, that no one knows the origin of thought. I am looking deeply, and I don't know where it is coming from! Looking for myself, I see the origin of a my experience, or ground, is Pure Awareness, and I see that everything arises out of that and is pervaded by that. That's all I know. So thought appears to be an expression of Pure Awareness, like everything else. And, it seems to have an intelligence that is personal to my life/thoughts/conditioning/personality/situation.

Is there such a thing as your life/thoughts/conditioning/personality/situation? Or is it just life life-ing, thoughts-thinking, conditioning...erm...conditioning?? Lol.

Is there a life that you can call "yours"? Do you own it? Did you choose it? Did you create it?

My warmest regards...deeper and deeper you are going in a most wonderful exploration. I eagerly await your response.

[Lightwins]

Hi Bodhi,
I have not heard from you in a while so I checked to see if I sent my last response to your post dated May 31, and can't find it. Did you receive it?
Thanks,
Lynn

[b0dhi]

Hey Lynn

Sometimes we have these glitches and some odd post disappears. Apologies for this, could you respond again?

Regards

[Lightwins]

Hi Bodhi,
I hope you move has gone well! I will respond again to your post of May 31.

Whatever you think you are choosing or making a choice about, examine deeply. Is there really a you doing the choosing or is the choice appearing. Is whatever that's happening being done, or is it just happening?

I cannot find a "me" that is choosing, although it FEELS like there is one. But if I examine deeply, it looks like choice just happens—out of all "causes and conditions."

What choice do you feel you have? Do you choose your thoughts? Did you choose your brain? What about your body? Did you choose the colour of the eyes? The length of the third finger? Do you choose to breathe? Or to digest your food? Did you choose to be alive?

It is easy to see that I do not choose these things—thoughts, brain, body, eyes, digestion, etc. But it seems that I have made life choices such as a career, a partner, etc, and make countless choices each day. Yet, there were countless influences contributing to those choices. A choice was made to sit down and write to you instead of many other things I could have done. There was just a movement to do this. Also, I recently chose to buy a car. I chose a white, Honda Civic. I see that there were many factors involved in that decision. My previous car was a Honda Civic and I liked it, my friend bought a white car, and I liked that, etc. So there seems to be many influences including all of my conditioning involved in choices happening but no independent entity doing that.

I had a discussion with a spiritual teacher about free will on Facebook yesterday. In response to my saying that there is no control and choice just happens, he said: "In the eternal realm or from the eternal perspective there is no free will (in the mundane sense), there is only BEing – there is no willing–to–be, the only thing to “do” is simply BE. But within the temporal realm, nothing is certain and we do have free will (freedom of choice). EVERY creature has free will, which each manifests in its own unique way. As human beings we have personal power to choose between this or that thought, emotion, action, etc."

To that teacher, it is wrong for me to apply absolute truth to relative reality. But in my own LOOKING, I find that it APPEARS as though I have personal power to choose between thoughts, emotions and actions, but that is only an appearance. There is no personal self doing that. For me, I agree that the only thing to "do" is to simply BE—and choice happens, thoughts happen, emotions happen, action happens. This is how the absolute and relative come together. Then thought attributes all that to a separate self. That attribution seems to happen continuously.

The main thing my conditioned mind stream does not like about starting to see that there is no control is that "I" have no say over whether or not liberation will happen. It also doesn't like that "I" don't have any control over my future and whether or not bad or painful things will happen to this life and body. The mind stream doesn't like the idea of trusting something it doesn't really know or understand. But what else is there to trust? Thought? I don't think so!

Thanks for your time and attention with this Bodhi!

[b0dhi]

Hi Lynn

Thanks for your response and great work you are doing :)

There are many ways to get tied up in the web of complexity that is "control and choice".

Personally I like to keep it simple to start with, and then let any other truths that need to come forth grow out of the first understanding.

This is: In order to have choice or control, there has to be a personal "I". If there is no personal "I", then there cannot be personal choice or control. However, as you rightly say, there can be the "appearance" of personal choice and control, in the same way that there is the "appearance" of a personal I.

If this "I" is illusory Lynn, then any choice and control it appears to have can only be illusory too. How does this statement sit with you?

The main thing my conditioned mind stream does not like about starting to see that there is no control is that "I" have no say over whether or not liberation will happen.

Can liberation happen to an "I" or is it that liberation is what remains when there is no "I"? An "I", by its own definition, is limited and captive in the realm of "I" and "not I". Hence an "I" can never be free :)

The mind stream doesn't like the idea of trusting something it doesn't really know or understand. But what else is there to trust? Thought? I don't think so!

There is always this fear of "letting go of control". As you look with the clarity you have gained, and you can see that the "I" is illusory, then what has changed besides the perspective? As you rightly point out the choices just happen and things carry on much the same as before. What is changing is that Lynn is seeing the illusory nature of the "I" that was taking credit for the choices before.

How does this strike you?

Thanks for your time and attention with this Bodhi!

Most welcome, this is a most pleasurable conversation. My thanks extend your way as well :)