Liberation

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Things happen by themselves. There are no such things as decisions, there are thoughts that want to do things, want to make decisions, want to drive the situations, but with just waiting long enough it is possible to see that nothing happens in that way.

Once again, has this just been seen? Was there a moment, something I said or that just happened, something in talking with Ilona, maybe, that this became clear?

What about things like free will or intention?

There is no self, and even if there was one, now there are no more desires. Without the desire, there is no interest in changing anything. Everything is right as it is.

Excellent. This has just fallen into place?

Thoughts may well continue to appear sometimes and some of these could be about 'I want this' or 'I don't want that'. And it is perfectly possible to experience body sensations along with thoughts that seem to add 'weight' to these ideas, seeming to pull towards a 'desired' thing or push it away if it seems undesirable.

What I'm saying is that 'desires' could appear, just like thoughts, even quite strongly. Seeing through 'self' is not about denying feelings that do appear.

Does what I have said here make sense to you?

best wishes,
Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

What I'm saying is that 'desires' could appear, just like thoughts, even quite strongly. Seeing through 'self' is not about denying feelings that do appear.

Does what I have said here make sense to you?

That makes perfect sense! What I meant is that there is no need to fulfill them. It's not even that probably... more like there is this sensation in the "background" of everything that keeps me from identifying with the desire. And it's not even that. Is very strange, the more you try to describe that sensation the more it gets wrong.

Another weird thing are the amount of thought of doubt. Like this is not real, there is still an I, look at me!, and so on. But they never get the chance to be expressed. Since Monday there were thought like "ask for help, ask for further instructions" but it never happened. I never got to ask anybody about help on things. And in the end things just fell in to place.

Once again, has this just been seen? Was there a moment, something I said or that just happened, something in talking with Ilona, maybe, that this became clear?

It started with the first exercises, but the while talking with Ilona I clearly saw the "I" in a thought as a lie, as not being owned by anyone or anything.

Maybe it's part of the process, but the worry since Monday is getting stronger. Even if I feel that doesn't belong to me I feel like I still need to do something. And even that doesn't seem real. Finally it came out! Could you help me with this?

Thank you Jon,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Maybe it's part of the process, but the worry since Monday is getting stronger. Even if I feel that doesn't belong to me I feel like I still need to do something. And even that doesn't seem real. Finally it came out! Could you help me with this?

Of course I'll try to help.

You are right. Worry can happen and then it seems that something needs to happen to change something for 'someone'.

Do you find that it tends to be what thoughts 'say' that seems worrying? Notice the thoughts that appear. What are they actually saying that is worrying? You could try writing them down directly, so as to see what they say.

Sometimes thoughts can come thick and fast. Then it can be very helpful to simply become aware of what your hands are doing. What sensations are going on there? Or your feet? What is the sensation there? Or your breathing? You don't have to sit down for an hour to meditate, just notice the sensations and sometimes thoughts dissipate or become less. Then whatever they are ABOUT seems a lot less real or worrying

That makes perfect sense! What I meant is that there is no need to fulfill them. It' isn't even that probably... more like there is this sensation in the "background" of everything that keeps me from identifying with the desire. And it's not even that. Is very strange, the more you try to describe that sensation the more it gets wrong.

Excellent. Don't try to describe it. The mind or thoughts tries to label and describe everything. Have you noticed this?
it is very interesting that Lao Tsu the Taoist master once said (and my quote is probably not perfect): "That which can be named is not the real Tao". Does that make sense?

Another weird thing are the amount of thought of doubt. Like this is not real, there is still an I, look at me!, and so on. But they never get the chance to be expressed. Since Monday there were thought like "ask for help, ask for further instructions" but it never happened. I never got to ask anybody about help on things. And in the end things just fell in to place.

Wonderful. So lovely.

It started with the first exercises, but the while talking with Ilona I clearly saw the "I" in a thought as a lie, as not being owned by anyone or anything.

That's it.


Let me know how it's going.

best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Do you find that it tends to be what thoughts 'say' that seems worrying? Notice the thoughts that appear. What are they actually saying that is worrying? You could try writing them down directly, so as to see what they say.

The only worry that seems to have an effect is the one saying that the peaceful and calm sensation is running out, that is a lie.

Sometimes thoughts can come thick and fast. Then it can be very helpful to simply become aware of what your hands are doing. What sensations are going on there? Or your feet? What is the sensation there? Or your breathing? You don't have to sit down for an hour to meditate, just notice the sensations and sometimes thoughts dissipate or become less. Then whatever they are ABOUT seems a lot less real or worrying

And that is what I usually do, that helps a lot! But isn't it still separation? On Monday evening I was feeling way more calm and relaxed, empty, nothing could be touched, nothing could stick because there was nothing to stick to! Now I need to notice other sensations to help.

And while I was writing that I realized that it wasn't a sensation, but a thought, an expectation. After that all the worry disappeared.

"That which can be named is not the real Tao". Does that make sense?

Absolutely, labeling that feeling is like trying to catch a soap bubble with a needle!

Thank you Jon,
F

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Just realized that the problem was thinking that being was a certain condition, but it's not. The feeling of Monday happened on Monday, so what? That's it. It's not my sensation, nothing owns it, so it can stay or go as it pleases.

Thanks,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

And while I was writing that I realized that it wasn't a sensation, but a thought, an expectation. After that all the worry disappeared.

Yes. It's good to notice these thoughts. well done. You may find that you keep waking up to the way thoughts have spun a web and that there is no control over when or even how that waking up happens. Have you noticed this?

Just realized that the problem was thinking that being was a certain condition, but it's not. The feeling of Monday happened on Monday, so what? That's it. It's not my sensation, nothing owns it, so it can stay or go as it pleases.

That's right. How does it feel to see this?

Thoughts will make announcements or even convincing stories about how there really is a 'me' that 'has problems', 'has doubts' and so on, until ,somehow ,the bubble pops again. Looks like this is has been part of your experience? Especially at first this can happen a lot.



best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

You may find that you keep waking up to the way thoughts have spun a web and that there is no control over when or even how that waking up happens. Have you noticed this?

Yes! It's probably just part of the story we are "experiencing"

Thoughts will make announcements or even convincing stories about how there really is a 'me' that 'has problems', 'has doubts' and so on, until ,somehow ,the bubble pops again. Looks like this is has been part of your experience? Especially at first this can happen a lot.

It has been indeed! When the focus is centered on the silence no-I, all the noise stops. That helps for the moment when it's like having screaming monkeys around! What I noticed in particular is the presence, I never noticed the sensation of the back on the seat, or the feeling of the feet in the shoes. Before noticing all this, it was just thought. Just noise, only the thoughts and their story. Everything else disappeared in the fog.

Thanks,
Jon

[Smarambas]

Just to clarify, the SILENT no-I!

F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

. What I noticed in particular is the presence, I never noticed the sensation of the back on the seat, or the feeling of the feet in the shoes. Before noticing all this, it was just thought. Just noise, only the thoughts and their story.

Is it possible to find a limit to this presence or these sensations? Take a look.

When you can, take a walk in nature, by the sea or a local park. Find somewhere where everything is alive and naturally happening, sun, rain, wind, grass, trees, insects, animals,people. Just spend a few moments noticing all sensations happening, all feelings, all body sensations and thoughts.

Now, see if it is possible to find an edge or line anywhere in this experience where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins. ? Look for this line.

Best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Is it possible to find a limit to this presence or these sensations? Take a look

What do you mean by limit? Could you please elaborate more?

Now, see if it is possible to find an edge or line anywhere in this experience where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins. ? Look for this line.

I tried this once today, while I was on the train. I can't find a limit to perception, it's like it's part of the same flux. The mind becomes silent and it's like being in the middle of a river. Everything is moving. About perception in particular, it is like I can feel the space around me as "touch".

I will see if it happens again tomorrow!

Thanks,
F

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

The main sensation is that the presence is permeating all around the body. It feels like being a cloud of gas "touching" everything, like the inside of the body seems... I don't know the English for this... but basically like having holes. Almost disappearing. Maybe it explains it better saying that the sensations like touch are not drawing a line, they are just events with a location closer to the point of view in the sea of "happening".

Thank you,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Is it possible to find a limit to this presence or these sensations? Take a look...

What do you mean by limit? Could you please elaborate more?

Sorry, I didn't put it very well. Let's look at what you said here

It has been indeed! When the focus is centered on the silence no-I, all the noise stops. That helps for the moment when it's like having screaming monkeys around! What I noticed in particular is the presence, I never noticed the sensation of the back on the seat, or the feeling of the feet in the shoes. Before noticing all this, it was just thought. Just noise, only the thoughts and their story. Everything else disappeared in the fog.

This is beautiful. This felt presence of immediate experience. From now on it will always be possible to notice this and to see the content of thoughts in perspective.

Do you feel that you can say with confidence that you have seen though the 'I' illusion?


best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

I feel it gets quite tricky to express in general what has changed. It is a bit like there is no past anymore. There is a thought, a memory, about how everything was experienced before. But is foggy and confused, and memories and thought are not experience At the same time it feels like nothing really changed, nothing added. No gate, no doors. I have "issues" talking about the past and the future, the Now is so... present... that it's difficult to see thoughts about past or future. It feels a bit like it's always been like this.

I also feel that when it happens to talk about this the experience, the sensation grows stronger. It never goes out but it gets deeper. Which is not real, because it doesn't have a size or a shape, but again it's a sensation quite complicated to express and as soon as you try, it's not correct immediately after.

Thank you Jon,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

feel it gets quite tricky to express in general what has changed. It is a bit like there is no past anymore. There is a thought, a memory, about how everything was experienced before. But is foggy and confused, and memories and thought are not experience At the same time it feels like nothing really changed, nothing added. No gate, no doors. I have "issues" talking about the past and the future, the Now is so... present... that it's difficult to see thoughts about past or future. It feels a bit like it's always been like this.

Beautiful. Language doesn't have the right words for this. Do you notice that the way language is formed everything is expressed in terms of a duality? 'Self' and 'other'? Nouns, for example. 'A table'. But what is the real experience? Is there actually a fixed entity thing 'table'? What is the experience if you close your eyes and place your hand palm down on the table?

You are doing very well at trying to express all this. You are right. there are no gates. This is just an image, a symbol. Nobody passes though a gate. And yet there is a seeing of how thoughts have been operating all this time, how they have created a kind of world that isn't real, like that film the Matrix?

It is good that Now is so present. Past and Future. Where do they 'exist'? They are never in the Here, Now. They have only ever been thoughts ABOUT 'a past' or 'future'.

I also feel that when it happens to talk about this the experience, the sensation grows stronger. It never goes out but it gets deeper. Which is not real, because it doesn't have a size or a shape, but again it's a sensation quite complicated to express and as soon as you try, it's not correct immediately after.

To me it sounds as though this is quite new to you and is in fact deepening. We should spend a few days simply seeing what happens. You should take an opportunity to go for that walk. Please take time to relax into the Now and enjoy allowing this.

You are doing so well.

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon

Beautiful. Language doesn't have the right words for this. Do you notice that the way language is formed everything is expressed in terms of a duality? 'Self' and 'other'? Nouns, for example. 'A table'. But what is the real experience? Is there actually a fixed entity thing 'table'? What is the experience if you close your eyes and place your hand palm down on the table?

Is there even a table :D?

To me it sounds as though this is quite new to you and is in fact deepening. We should spend a few days simply seeing what happens. You should take an opportunity to go for that walk. Please take time to relax into the Now and enjoy allowing this.

Sounds good, I'll just keep posting once a day with my findings!

Thank you so much Jon,
F