Liberation

[Smarambas]

If it's not the body, what is experiencing the experience??

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

I was playing exactly in that direction. My current problem is trying to control the flux of thoughts. I can't stop them to explore the sensation better. It looks like my brain strives to find a justification for everything, like what is touching what, what type of sensation is that, I almost always start to see in my mind my hand touching something. It's okay for me to keep doing this for the next 24h, but should I block the thoughts or just passively try to notice what happens?

Don't try to control the flux of thoughts. Trying to stop them may even make these exercises harder. It's good that you notice what is going on with thoughts though. This is helpful.

Yes! It is as if the brain tries to find a justification for everything. You describe the scenario well.

No, don't block the thoughts. Noticing what happens is perfect.

I already tried this, being curios I tried every sense apart from seeing. First thing that happens is the sound, then my brain tries to find the origin of the sound and connect it to what could have caused that sound.

It's a bit like the brain couldn't bear to experience something without trying to modify or interpret it in its own way.

That is a very common experience and well described.

Any advice on how to stop that?

No. Don't try to stop it. Sometimes thoughts can naturally subside but don't try to make it happen.

I want you to continue with exploring the immediacy of sensations over the next few days. But since you have talked about thoughts, let's look at those a bit now.

Is it clear to you that there is a major difference between the immediate experience of felt sensations and the comments or narrative that appears as thoughts ABOUT the experience?

Do you create thoughts? Try thinking a thought now. What happens?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Try to prevent a thought from happening. What do you notice?


best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Is it clear to you that there is a major difference between the immediate experience of felt sensations and the comments or narrative that appears as thoughts ABOUT the experience?

Yes, the first is immediate, then the latter comes afterwards. But are two different experiences

Do you create thoughts? Try thinking a thought now. What happens?

I'm not sure if I understood this correctly. Let's say I decide to think about a strawberry. After that, I can see the image of the strawberry in my mind. Does it count as creating a thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Try to prevent a thought from happening. What do you notice?

This seems a bit complex. Let's say someone tells me to not thing about chickens. Then I will think to not think about chickens, and that is by itself a thought. If I want to block a thought I usually use another thought and that means no, I can't block a thought. The best I can do is to silence the voice in my head for 5-6 seconds (probably less).

This is all very fascinating. Thank you,
F

[Smarambas]

About the strawberry part, I can't say if I thought that. I believe that I thought about thinking a strawberry, but I have no proof that it's my creation.

If I try to think a thought, the mind becomes silent. I'm more focused. As soon as I lower my guard thought start popping up. I'm currently still identifying with the "voice" in my mind, that makes me believe that the thoughts are my creation but I have no concrete proof of that. It's not easy to explain. Cool!

Thanks,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

If I try to think a thought, the mind becomes silent. I'm more focused. As soon as I lower my guard thought start popping up. I'm currently still identifying with the "voice" in my mind, that makes me believe that the thoughts are my creation but I have no concrete proof of that. It's not easy to explain. Cool!

It is cool, isn't it?

And the senses too. When you look at sense experience, is any of that your creation?

Do 'you' make hearing happen? Or does it just happen?

Can sensations be prevented from happening?

It is possible to cover the eyes completely, but then there is still seeing (of darkness).

It is so interesting that you say the 'voice in my mind, that makes me believe that the thoughts are my creation'.

Could it be that thoughts appear rather in the same way that sensations just happen? Only, in the case of thoughts, there is the content, the story, the narrative, often about 'me this' or 'me that'?

Is it really possible to switch thoughts on or off or to create or prevent thoughts? If this were the case and there were a self. 'me' or 'I' that could create or prevent thoughts, it would be a straightforward matter to only create or allow pleasant thoughts?

best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

And the senses too. When you look at sense experience, is any of that your creation?

Do 'you' make hearing happen? Or does it just happen?

Can sensations be prevented from happening?

It is possible to cover the eyes completely, but then there is still seeing (of darkness).

Yes, it's the same. I'm not creating sensations, they just happen. I can't block them, even if I put my hands around my ears to stop hearing, I will start hearing my pulse or the tiny movements of bones and tendons.

Could it be that thoughts appear rather in the same way that sensations just happen? Only, in the case of thoughts, there is the content, the story, the narrative, often about 'me this' or 'me that'?

Is it really possible to switch thoughts on or off or to create or prevent thoughts? If this were the case and there were a self. 'me' or 'I' that could create or prevent thoughts, it would be a straightforward matter to only create or allow pleasant thoughts?

at this point, I would say that thought is part of sensations, they have the same pop-up nature! It's more difficult to think about the mind as a sensation because every thought speaks as it's the main subject. And if we put attention to that we confuse the subject with ourselves.

No, I can't block my thoughts. if so as you say I will just think about puppies and pretty ladies :)! Even if now I can see that, I still identify with them, sadly. I want to see that infinitesimal moment between the appearance of a sensation-thought and the moment when something says "mine" and makes me believe that. How?

Thanks Jon,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Yes, it's the same. I'm not creating sensations, they just happen. I can't block them, even if I put my hands around my ears to stop hearing, I will start hearing my pulse or the tiny movements of bones and tendons.

Good investigation!

at this point, I would say that thought is part of sensations, they have the same pop-up nature!

They do seem to have that quality, don't they?

It's more difficult to think about the mind as a sensation because every thought speaks as it's the main subject. And if we put attention to that we confuse the subject with ourselves.

Hmm. Yes. All thoughts seem to just appear but they all carry some kind of message or announcement. Is that it?

So whilst, like sensations, thoughts really do appear, what they are ABOUT is always some kind of commentary or interpretation that is imagined but not happening for real?

For example, try this:

Find an apple or piece of fruit. Leave it exactly where it is and go into a different room.

Now you are away from the fruit, try to imagine it, it's colour, texture, scent and so on, as much as you can, for a few minutes.

Now return to where the real fruit is and pick it up. Feel the fruit in your hand, notice everything about the mixture of sensations that are experienced.

Now, compare the two types of experience. The thought-fruit, where the fruit was imagined and the real fruit where a real piece of fruit was experienced directly.

In one case the fruit is really experienced. In the other, although there is the idea or mental image of fruit it remains only an idea.

Could this 'only an idea' territory be the place where a self resides? As an imagined entity but not actually 'there' at all, as had been supposed?

This may sound like a ridiculous or simplistic idea but actually, where is the self that is supposed to be a real and separate thing? look for it. Where does it 'exist'?

best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Could this 'only an idea' territory be the place where a self resides? As an imagined entity but not actually 'there' at all, as had been supposed?

It could be. With the fruit, an apple, I can have a clear image in my head. Can imagine to feel the touch, smell, weight, and then discover that I wasn't that right when I check back with the fruit. The problem with the self is that I don't have any proof of either existence or non existence of it. Probably it's more difficult because being an idea, you can't really manage it as with physical object. Ideas tend to be more sticky! Can't get rid of them easily.

This may sound like a ridiculous or simplistic idea but actually, where is the self that is supposed to be a real and separate thing? look for it. Where does it 'exist'?

I can't find it. But still I'm identifying with something. The "this is me" sensation comes from the head, because it's were I think everything happens. But again, is more like I'm convinced of this. I can't find this self like I can feel a sensation or a physical apple.

I hope I'm going in the right direction!

Thanks Jon,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

You are going in the right direction! In any case I'll ask questions that will help you to not flounder around.

. I can't find it. But still I'm identifying with something. The "this is me" sensation comes from the head, because it's were I think everything happens. But again, is more like I'm convinced of this. I can't find this self like I can feel a sensation or a physical apple.

So, we'll concentrate more, for the moment, on thoughts.

Do you think thoughts

Or do thoughts think 'you'


If a self is 'there' in some way. Surely it should be possible to find? For example if you suspected that someone was standing in the room behind you, but you were not sure, you'd turn round and take a look.

Take a look now to see if there is an entity, 'me', that is somewhere in experience.

Best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Do you think thoughts

Or do thoughts think 'you'

I don't think thoughts, they are. Giving them attention creates the illusion of a self, that is not present otherwise.

If a self is 'there' in some way. Surely it should be possible to find? For example if you suspected that someone was standing in the room behind you, but you were not sure, you'd turn round and take a look.

Take a look now to see if there is an entity, 'me', that is somewhere in experience.

There is no self, not no-self. There is being, a sensation of rich emptyness. It's difficult to explain!

Thanks,
F

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

I hope everything is all right!

Thanks,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Yes, evrything is fine, thank you. Monday and Tuesday tend to be rather busy days for me. Sorry for not posying sooner.

I don't think thoughts, they are. Giving them attention creates the illusion of a self, that is not present otherwise.

That is great. Is it just recently that you have noticed that you don't think thoughts?

Do you feel that the unquestioned belief that 'I' or 'me' somehow really exists as an entity somewhere seems to have a lot to do with the illusion? And I suppose that by the time that thoughts are busy making these references it might seem that attention its self creates the illusion? Maybe a kind of dreaming attention?

But there is also the moment of noticing that this (thinking about 'I') really IS an illusion and that would seem to be attention too, wouldn't it? Maybe a waking up kind?

There is no self, not no-self. There is being, a sensation of rich emptyness. It's difficult to explain!

No, that is very succinct. Was this noticed just recently? How does it seem now? If possible try to describe it a little more?

Thank you,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Yes, everything is fine, thank you. Monday and Tuesday tend to be rather busy days for me. Sorry for not posying sooner.

No worries at all, yesterday we had a terror attack in Manchester and I was worrying. I'm glad to know that you are okay.

No, that is very succinct. Was this noticed just recently? How does it seem now? If possible try to describe it a little more?

Yesterday I had a chat with the lovely Ilona, I asked her a completely unrelated question and she managed to help me a lot with that. Now I feel the body very light and empty. Everything is effortless. The thoughts are something that is living on the surface of something very deep. Yesterday in particular the feeling was very strong, today I can feel that the thoughts are louder. Closing my eyes is very helpful, because I just feel the emptiness and everything turns very calm.
I also saw that the illusion of self is relative to the thoughts. A thought says I am hungry, we give that thought attention, so we empower that "I" giving it an importance that is not really there. In reality there is no self, no I. there is just silence and being. Now when I look around me it feels a bit like a dream.

Could you ask any other specific question? Maybe it will help me explain better.

Thank you,
F

[JonathanR]

Hleeo again F,

No worries at all, yesterday we had a terror attack in Manchester and I was worrying.

That is awful. So sorry to hear that. I hope you don't feel so worried now.

Yesterday I had a chat with the lovely Ilona, I asked her a completely unrelated question and she managed to help me a lot with that. Now I feel the body very light and empty. Everything is effortless. The thoughts are something that is living on the surface of something very deep. Yesterday in particular the feeling was very strong, today I can feel that the thoughts are louder. Closing my eyes is very helpful, because I just feel the emptiness and everything turns very calm.
I also saw that the illusion of self is relative to the thoughts. A thought says I am hungry, we give that thought attention, so we empower that "I" giving it an importance that is not really there. In reality there is no self, no I. there is just silence and being. Now when I look around me it feels a bit like a dream.

You have explained all of it very well. It's great that you chatted with Ilona.

No need to explain it more to me right now. You are doing very well.

Now let's look at how things happen. What makes things happen? What about choices and decisions? Is there a self making choices, or taking decisions?

best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Now let's look at how things happen. What makes things happen? What about choices and decisions? Is there a self making choices, or taking decisions?

Things happen by themselves. There are no such things as decisions, there are thoughts that want to do things, want to make decisions, want to drive the situations, but with just waiting long enough it is possible to see that nothing happens in that way.

There is no self, and even if there was one, now there are no more desires. Without the desire, there is no interest in changing anything. Everything is right as it is.

Thank you!
F