no stone unturned

[humbled]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have an analogy that all creation, things, ideas, energy, stuff are composed from a single planar surface. From that plane individuals or self grow. So it appears that self is separate but all of it emanates from 1 thing.
That is the crude analogy that I have in my mind. I think this but I don't feel it... yet

What are you looking for at LU?
I don't believe LU or anyone external can provide me with an answer. To borrow an overstated cliche, "the answers are not out there but inside". I firmly believe this. I am seeking input and ideas to help me reveal things for myself.
I also feel that searching for a philosophy or life guidance to make everything blissful is futile. I do believe that the answer for me lies in perspective. The perspective to see and feel at a fundamental level what self is not. At this point, my search won't be over but it is a necessary step for me. It is this theme that I think LU may provide guidance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like a guided conversation to challenge me to question beliefs and paradigms that I hold and may not realise I hold.
I've tried and experimented with lots of other approaches and at this point my thoughts feel confused. I would like the conversation to bring some focus to those thoughts.
I would like a guided conversation to encourage me to consider and ask questions that I haven't really dug in to.
I would like a guided conversation to challenge me to truly feel rather than simply reciting concepts.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have spent many years reading Buddhism, Zen, writings of Eckhart Tolle, most recently Jed McKenna. My library is filled with books on understanding purpose. I have dabbled with meditation, affirmations, Shen therapy. I took up wing chun kung fu for the discipline and connection with one's self.
With everything I've read and practised I do feel that something meaningful, valuable, truthful was there... although I may not be able to put a finger on it.
But with everything it still feels like there's something underlying, something more fundamental and basic.
I'm frustrated with my search as it feels like it's right in front of me but for whatever reason I can't see it.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

[Notone]

Hello humbled,

you have a really mature approach to the topic, that's great! If you want, I will give you input and ideas and most importantly help you with questions and directions on where to look.

But the difficult part is, you have to put down all other reading or satsang videos / audio books you may be invested in right now, so you can put all your effort and energy behind our inquiry. If you are OK with that, then we can begin.

[humbled]

Hello Notone
Thank you for your reply and offer to guide me.
I've put aside all other approaches as you suggested.
I'm ready to begin.

[Notone]

Very good humbled!

You have mentioned, that you believe in a certain analogy, about how individuals of self grow from a single planar surface. This is a nice metaphor.

As you noticed, it is of little use however to speculate about "what it might be like, if everything is supposed to be one". As long as you don't really feel it, there is little use in this kind of philosophy.

What we need to do, is only explore the facts that are a given right here and now and put aside all ideas and thoughts about what reality might be like. It might be that we grow from a single planar surface, but it might also be that the surface grows from us, or that we are the surface, or it might be yet something entirely different! The more important question is: "according to your own experience, what are you right now?"

Any kind of personal detail is uninteresting for us, the important thing is however to answer this question honestly, not using any kind of previous beliefs that may have accumulated over time.

[humbled]

The more important question is: "according to your own experience, what are you right now?"

Any kind of personal detail is uninteresting for us, the important thing is however to answer this question honestly, not using any kind of previous beliefs that may have accumulated over time.

What am I right now BUT no personal detail... that part throws me a bit. Physically I feel things in my body. My hip is a bit stiff (probably from skiing yesterday), my eyes are a bit fuzzy - I just woke up.
Before I sat down to write this my thoughts were about what my day ahead will be.
Though for a brief moment as I contemplate this I felt like I was "looking at" arms and hands typing, not MY arms and hands. Maybe I'm still sleeping?
I don't sense anything physical until I direct my thoughts to it. But there's still lots going on.
"I" changes depending on physical feedback or thought focus.
All my description of who I am comes to me through this own experience. And that experience is always changing so I seems to change.

[Notone]

"I" changes depending on physical feedback or thought focus.

That is the important part. How is it possible to know this?
Now if the weather changes, it is possible to know that because of 2 factors: 1. Weather is perceived. 2. There is memory of past perceptions. Is it the same with the "I", can we say that it is much like weather?

[humbled]

When I think of the weather, it seems like it is simply description of a state or conditions. But it's not really a thing unto itself.
But I can say the state or conditions are different than what they were before. And as I write this, "I" perceived this state of conditions. But the conditions would have been there even if not perceived.
Is "I" like the weather? Maybe in that it is dependant on the conditions describing it but itself is not really a thing. Or more so it needs feedback or thought focus otherwise "I" doesn't seem to be.

[Notone]

On the one hand we have a statement that just might be confused with post-realization talk:

Is "I" like the weather? Maybe in that it is dependant on the conditions describing it but itself is not really a thing. Or more so it needs feedback or thought focus otherwise "I" doesn't seem to be.

But on the other hand we have a certainty, that realization did not yet occur:

I think this but I don't feel it... yet.

So there are two possibilities basically. One: during our short conversation you have passed the gateless gate. Two: it appears you know what to answer to the questions, even though you do not feel what you say.

Can you please tell me, which one of these two is the case right now?
Do you understand based on your own direct experience that "I" is nothing but a feeling, that is comes up sometimes and disappears some other times, just as easy as it pops up?

Or do you just know the right answers to the questions? If this is in fact the case, I have to tell you this is a completely wrong approach. These questions are no crossword puzzle, no quiz. I do not have cards with right answers on them and I am not double checking these cards to see if you know the right answer or not.

There is no way to know the answer to the questions asked here! Do not deceive yourself by thinking, that if you can describe the "I" in the way consistent with Buddhist philosophy, anything will be gained on your side.

Our inquiry is not about knowing something, it is not about learning something new, it is not about forgetting something old! It is only about investigating the matter of fact, investigating what is being experienced now.

There is also a right way to deal with the questions asked here and a wrong way to deal with them.

The right way to deal with these questions is to concentrate on what you feel, not what you know. And answer accordingly.

The wrong way to deal with these questions is to know the right answer to them or to try to find a right answer, based on what you have learned about Buddhism or Zen, what you read in books, etc.

[humbled]

So there are two possibilities basically. One: during our short conversation you have passed the gateless gate. Two: it appears you know what to answer to the questions, even though you do not feel what you say.

Can you please tell me, which one of these two is the case right now?

It is the second case. I believe I've read so much on this topic that the "right" answers come up but I don't feel them. Well maybe I do but it's so fleeting that I don't know what to believe.

Do you understand based on your own direct experience that "I" is nothing but a feeling, that is comes up sometimes and disappears some other times, just as easy as it pops up?

"I" is present way more in my thinking than it is not. As I mentioned above, the non "I" experience is so fleeting that I don't even know if that's what it is. Or if it's just another version of I.

The right way to deal with these questions is to concentrate on what you feel, not what you know. And answer accordingly.
The wrong way to deal with these questions is to know the right answer to them or to try to find a right answer, based on what you have learned about Buddhism or Zen, what you read in books, etc.

This is honestly where I struggle the most. I struggle with separating what I've read or come to know vs. what I actually feel. In answering questions about this I barely feel the answers but I end up contemplating the way things ought to be. I'm not sure how to eliminate the thinking part and open up the feeling part.
In my day to day life, I still see the other people out there; my work colleagues, my boss, my family, my friends, strangers, etc. Sometimes I wonder "why did they do or say that?" "How does this situation may me look?". I wonder why I'm not more this or that, how can I live up to others expectations, how come life isn't working out better? I don't feel how this is all connected when it seems so disconnected and in conflict or competition. In rare moments I think I feel a connectedness but it's so rare that I wonder if it's even real?
Separating my thinking from my feeling is always my challenge.

[Notone]

This is honestly where I struggle the most. I struggle with separating what I've read or come to know vs. what I actually feel

This is very important, we have to be able to separate the actual experience from thoughts about it. Otherwise, we cannot come back to looking at the experience as it is and we will be stuck in interpretations and logical loops or similar.

So let's try and overcome this limitation. I know you can do it, because not being able to focus on experience as it is is an acquired trait. You learn to focus only on thoughts at some point, therefore you can also go back. All you have to do is try to experience what is, concentrate on something you can feel and stay with this feeling for some time, without interpreting it.

Of course, Zazen practice is exactly that - sitting there, focusing on experience as opposed to thoughts about it. Just feeling what is going on w/o interpreting it. Not making an effort to think and not making an effort not to think, just being aware and focused on what you feel.

You can certainly try sitting Zazen. It is a good practice.

What I also can suggest to you, is go outside and take a walk. Try to feel the air around you, is it cold? Or is it warm? Try to experience just how it feels. The name of the feeling you have might be "cold" or "warm". But what does it actually feel like? You can notice, that when you only focus on what you feel the threshold for "too warm" or "too cold" will basically go away, or will fade a lot.

[humbled]

So I've tried sitting to feel.
I've walked outside. I try observing the feeling without analyzing it. In my efforts I might have had a glimpse but it was so fleeting that I wasn't sure...
I've delayed since my last post as I've been trying to work through this.
It doesn't feel like I'm making much progress.
I'll keep trying and post back if I get anywhere.

[Notone]

I've delayed since my last post as I've been trying to work through this.

It is good to see you are putting effort behind this. Determination to see through the illusion is the most important factor, it guarantees your success in the long run.

It would be best if you post something each day or two. Even if it is just to say: still no progress, continuing to look.

In my efforts I might have had a glimpse

please describe this in more detail, if possible. A glimpse of what? What did it feel like?

[humbled]

Still no progress but continuing to work

[Notone]

Great to hear that! Just be aware, we are trying to understand the difference between actual experience and interpretation of it. We are trying to see the separation or gap between the two.

Once that has been seen, the actual experience becomes accessible all the time and interpretation is not substituting it anymore - we have refined our attention, made it a "sharper" tool for the further inquiry.

If you have any questions whatsoever, please feel free to ask.

[Notone]

Hello humbled, how are you doing? Are you stuck at anything, do you have any questions? Would you like to post some feedback on what you have been doing and what the results are?