Guide to truth

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay--

AND HOW DOES THAT ACTUALLY FEEL? DESCRIBE TO ME EXACTLY HOW AN INSIDE AND AN OUTSIDE FEELS IN ACTUAL EXPERIENCE?
The inside/outside is a story told by thought. It's also a sensation. And it involves color in terms of the body image.


SO, HOW CAN THERE BE AN INSIDE AND AN OUTSIDE IF THERE IS ONLY SOUND AND THERE IS ONE EXPERIENCING SOUND?
There can't be an inside/outside.


I experimented with anxiety, since it was Monday. The anxiety itself kept me from actually sitting down with it. However, I was able to see the thought stories that were labeling it as "anxiety" and I saw that thought doesn't actually know anything about anxiety. I experienced the sensations, mostly in the chest, that thought labels as anxiety and saw that those sensations don't know anything about anxiety. Finally, I experienced color in the sense of a person troubled by an uncomfortable emotion and saw that that image also didn't know anything about anxiety. The strands combine together somehow to create anxiety.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hello Carolyn,

And how does that actually feel? Describe to me exactly how an inside and an outside feels in actual experience?

The inside/outside is a story told by thought. It's also a sensation. And it involves color in terms of the body image.

YES, SO IF YOU IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND IMAGES OF A BODY AND OF EARS AND ALL THOUGHTS ABOUT HEARING AND OF INSIDE AND OUTSIDE…..IS THERE SOMEONE HEARING SOUND OR SOUND JUST IS?

So, how can there be an inside and an outside if there is only sound and there is one experiencing sound?

There can't be an inside/outside.

NO, BECAUSE WHAT IS THE AE OF THE ‘INSIDE OF A HOUSE’ AND THE AE OF THE ‘OUTSIDE OF A HOUSE’?

I experimented with anxiety, since it was Monday. The anxiety itself kept me from actually sitting down with it. However, I was able to see the thought stories that were labeling it as "anxiety" and I saw that thought doesn't actually know anything about anxiety. I experienced the sensations, mostly in the chest, that thought labels as anxiety and saw that those sensations don't know anything about anxiety. Finally, I experienced color in the sense of a person troubled by an uncomfortable emotion and saw that that image also didn't know anything about anxiety. The strands combine together somehow to create anxiety.

There are thoughts about something called ‘anxiety’ but what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour…there is no anxiety to be found.

So, every time anxiety appears, have a LOOK to see if you can find someone who is actually experiencing anxiety. Break it down. This doesn’t mean that anxiety will disappear, and that anxiety will never be experienced again…can you find anyone that can control what thoughts, colours or sensations appear or to what thought labels them as? Emotions will still continue to appear, why would that change? What we are doing is changing how they are perceived.

So, don’t wait for anxiety to end, but to keep LOOKING to see if there is anyone/anything that is anxious!

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,



YES, SO IF YOU IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND IMAGES OF A BODY AND OF EARS AND ALL THOUGHTS ABOUT HEARING AND OF INSIDE AND OUTSIDE…..IS THERE SOMEONE HEARING SOUND OR SOUND JUST IS?

Sound just is.


NO, BECAUSE WHAT IS THE AE OF THE ‘INSIDE OF A HOUSE’ AND THE AE OF THE ‘OUTSIDE OF A HOUSE’?

When we were talking about inside/outside, I thought you meant of the body. But the house-- it would be thoughts/sensations/color. Thought says there is inside/outside.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

No, because what is the ae of the ‘inside of a house’ and the ae of the ‘outside of a house’?

When we were talking about inside/outside, I thought you meant of the body. But the house-- it would be thoughts/sensations/color. Thought says there is inside/outside.

Yes, sorry, I was referring to your reference about thought saying the sound of the bird is outside. So, what is the AE of an inside of a house and outside? Absolutely none…what is actually appearing is colour and thoughts about an inside and outside of a house.

WHAT IS MISSING?

A sense of meaning.

And what exactly is a ‘sense of meaning’? What does that mean…what are you looking for when you refer to wanting a sense of meaning?

What is it exactly that wants a sense of meaning? And what will that actually do and for whom/what?

The Zen quotes “when hungry eat, when tired sleep, and “before enlightenment chop wood, carry water…after enlightenment chop wood, carry water” applies.

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

And what exactly is a ‘sense of meaning’? What does that mean…what are you looking for when you refer to wanting a sense of meaning?
___________
A sense of meaning would be a thought.


What is it exactly that wants a sense of meaning? And what will that actually do and for whom/what?
__________
There is no one, nothing, that could want a sense of meaning.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hey Carolyn,

Yes, a sense of meaning is a thought story about someone (a separate self) understanding the purpose of life, and understanding why they are here and making sense of all of THIS....that yes, THIS was missing something and therefore wasn't enough, whole or complete and that there needs to be more.

So, can you articulate what it is that is missing...what is it that you are seeking in wanting a 'sense of meaning', so that I know where you are coming from and we can look at it together?
Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay
So sorry I didn't respond last night. I was helping my husband clean the basement, which is a world separate unto itself, and didn't remember until I had been collapsed in bed for a while.

Your paragraph about the sense of meaning expresses it perfectly. What's going on here? I felt it really strongly after the birth of my first daughter, to the point of deep depression. Now I feel it with my mom, with whom we live and who is 95 years old. What does her life matter? What does one more day matter?

On one level I see the thought stories around this. But nonetheless these thought stories are troubling.
Love
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

On one level I see the thought stories around this. But nonetheless these thought stories are troubling.

AND WHAT IS THE EXPECTATION HERE?

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,


AND WHAT IS THE EXPECTATION HERE?

I don't think, at this point, that I actually have an expectation around a sense of meaning. I've given up on that.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hello Carolyn,

And what is the expectation here?

I don't think, at this point, that I actually have an expectation around a sense of meaning. I've given up on that.

IS THIS 'GIVING UP' A RESIGNATION, OR IS IT A SEEING THAT THERE IS NO ONE/NO THING THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE A PURPOSE? TO HAVE A PURPOSE WOULD MEAN THAT THERE IS SOMEONE/SOMETHING THAT IS LIVING LIFE. CAN YOU FIND THAT SOMEONE/SOMETHING?

Your paragraph about the sense of meaning expresses it perfectly. What's going on here? I felt it really strongly after the birth of my first daughter, to the point of deep depression. Now I feel it with my mom, with whom we live and who is 95 years old. What does her life matter? What does one more day matter?

On one level I see the thought stories around this. But nonetheless these thought stories are troubling.

To me, it seems that you still have an expectation that life should change and that thoughts should change and until you see these changing and your life changing or life itself changing, or until you visually see the world differently, or until you see yourself changing - then you haven't seen. What changes is the perception of what life is, and that is the purpose of LOOKING with AE. Throughout our exploration I kept pointing to AE and to thoughts about AE so you could distinguish between what IS (what is actually appearing) as opposed to what thought says (aka thought stories) ABOUT what IS. That's it! That's the simplicity of it.

IF YOU HAVE A LOOK AT YOUR MOTHER WITH AE..WHAT IS ACTUALLY APPEARING?

Yes, there is the story about how she is your mother and there are emotions attached to this story, however, what is the actually appearing?

This exploration is not about denying what is appearing, however it is about denying that there are separate things made from different stuff and each has their own individuation and story. Everything is ‘made of’ experience/consciousness/awareness/THIS (whichever term you prefer). They are all an appearance in/as THIS, in other words, sensationcoloursoundsmelltastethought is ‘made up’ of experience….experience is not made up of sensationcoloursoundsmelltastethought; therefore they are one and the same thing….no separation.

Experience is not derived from people and things. People and things are derived from experience. The forms (ie hand, lamp, dog, person) seem to be the reality, when in truth they are anything but! It's experience that is the substance of all the forms - that is the actual reality.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I would like to live with more clarity.

WHAT FURTHER CLARITY WOULD YOU LIKE?

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

IS THIS 'GIVING UP' A RESIGNATION, OR IS IT A SEEING THAT THERE IS NO ONE/NO THING THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE A PURPOSE? TO HAVE A PURPOSE WOULD MEAN THAT THERE IS SOMEONE/SOMETHING THAT IS LIVING LIFE. CAN YOU FIND THAT SOMEONE/SOMETHING?

I would say that it's partly both.


IF YOU HAVE A LOOK AT YOUR MOTHER WITH AE..WHAT IS ACTUALLY APPEARING?

There are thought stories and color.


WHAT FURTHER CLARITY WOULD YOU LIKE?

I intellectually understand that all is experience and there aren't separate things etc. But I don't know this through experience.

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

I intellectually understand that all is experience and there aren't separate things etc. But I don't know this through experience.

AND WHAT WILL BE DIFFERENT? HOW WILL YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE SEEN THIS THROUGH EXPERIENCE?

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

AND WHAT WILL BE DIFFERENT? HOW WILL YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE SEEN THIS THROUGH EXPERIENCE?

I feel like we're going in circles here. I would feel an easing of the effort of continuously trying to LOOK and SEE.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

AND WHAT WILL BE DIFFERENT? HOW WILL YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE SEEN THIS THROUGH EXPERIENCE?

I feel like we're going in circles here. I would feel an easing of the effort of continuously trying to LOOK and SEE.

Yes, we are going round in circles....because I am sure I have previously mentioned that LOOKING will continue to happen after the seeing. It will take time for the seeing to become a knowing. I continued to LOOK for many months after I had the realisation of no separate self. I LOOKED and LOOKED until the LOOKING became automatic. That is just how it is. It is the same as when you were at school and you had to study for an exams...did you not have to study the same stuff over and over as a means of cementing what you had learned? The same goes for 'seeing', you have to continuously LOOK to cement the 'seeing'! The need to LOOK ceases when it ceases....are you in control of that?

Maybe the following might explain it better than I am.

"Seeing no self is a recognition what is already here now. Sometimes I hear this – “I think I haven't seen it” In my experience, I have never had a doubt about the absence separate self, I tried once to doubt it, to see if it stands, but doubt had nowhere to land. It's obvious that life is not divided into little separate pieces. All that shows up is one movement.

Your experience may be different and you may have the doubt creeping in and taking over. But then, I see this is a hidden expectation, that seeing no self is going to solve all kinds of problems and when it does not deliver, there is a panic that perhaps this hasn't been seen through. As if there is a separate self that has these problems as if mind is in charge of solving them and seeing should have wiped all that away.

Don't know about you, but I have done a lot of work by myself, for myself to clear those beliefs that say how this is and how this should be and how this is not enough. These beliefs are not here because of presence of self-entity, they are here because they haven't been questioned. Intense emotions that come with these beliefs are screaming for attention. That's nothing to do with self or no self, it's to do with what we believe is true. Life does not stop at gating, it carries on. So does the looking. And if one looks, here now, this seeing that there is no one here to have problems or need to create and solve problems, is always available. As I say, it's a matter of recognition, noticing, what is here now. And that needs no words of description. It just is." - Ilona Ciunaite

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,
I commit to keep LOOKING.
love,
Carolyn