David's Inquiry

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DavidFredW
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David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:29 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have a conceptual understanding that the "self" is a creation of my brain, a self-reference and that there is no "thing" or "being" called "self". That said, my thinking and actions persistently think about, critique and judge my"self". I have an intellectual concept, but certainly am not free of "myself".

What are you looking for at LU?
To fully realize and experience that there is no self. It sounds like an interesting adjunct to work I have done with Landmark Education and Tekniko Technologies. I am a licensed Tekniko consultant and executive coach. I have been in the inquiry "what is it to be human" for more than 15 years.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a fascinating inquiry into this human(me) and the possibility of being free from the conversation/self-judgement of "me". "Coaching/guidance" on where to "look" to discover "no self" for myself. Out of that experience I am looking for greater peace of mind and confidence in who I am as I am.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Almost none. Attended Christian Science Sunday School as a young child. Attended Presbyterian church for about one year 20+ years ago. I currently have no spiritual practice.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:54 pm

Hi David
Welcome to LU :) glad you made it here. Thanks for the intro.
We can have a conversation and see where it takes you. All I ask of you is to answer from your own experience, not from what you have learned from others. That means focusing on your experience alone. This is your process and I'm here to support you, but the work is yours. So feel free to write as much as you want. I will answer when I can.

Have you ever considered, that there really is no separate self? No I, none as in zero.

If you look for the I, what is there, can you describe?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:42 pm

"I" is my self-reference. In some ways I would say it's my body, but "I" can't be found in my body. I have had some conversation about this question with my wife (she is also engaged with LU.) So I have a thought as to the answer, but have not yet experienced the answer. I am clear that I am not my body. Not my brain. I am cognizant, but not fluent in the conversation "out here". Would you say "I" and "me" are synonymous? I think more in terms of "me" than "I". I would say they are synonymous.

So, if I understand the nature of this inquiry, the "end game" is to experience no "I". At this point, I do not know what that looks like.

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:00 am

The end game is when there is no more confusion about what you are and what you are not.
Can you give me an example of how you experience something/someone that is absent? Which sense perception, thought or feeling informs about something that is not here?
If there really is no i, how would the experience be different from what already is?
It's not an altered state or something. It's very ordinary and simple.
Life is happening, I aka David, is not a manager, thinker, doer of life, but an expression of life.
Look, is life happening to a tree or as a tree? Get close to a tree and take a good look, is there a separation between tree and life? How about this body, is it outside of life happening?
Don't expect a big shift or some mysterious experience, it may happen unnoticeably.

In simplest way, does a kid experience no-Santa once he realises that there is no Santa as he believed to be.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:53 pm

Thank you for your communication. There is no separation between tree and life. I could infer that there's no separation between David and life. It's logical, makes sense. The more I ponder this question, the more I am present to "I". Logically, I get that I am not separate from life. Curiously, "I" seems to be stronger than when we began! So, David is not separate from life. I am left with, what would my experience be if there were no "I"? David would still exist, as the tree exists...

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:58 pm

Continuing from last post... This may be redundant... I get that there's no "thing" I. And at the same time I am present to the experience that I continually speak/think from "i". ????

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:34 pm

Is life happening to David or life happening as David?
How does David exist? Where is he now?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:43 pm

I did not receive a notification of your last reply. Just saw it today. Will reply no later than tomorrow 4/22.
I apologize for the breakdown.

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:53 pm

No worries! Answer when you're ready. I'd say check the forum once a day just in case.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:48 pm

Referring back to you roast questions:
Is life happening to David or life happening as David?
How does David exist? Where is he now?

Life's definitely happening, not clear that it is happening "to" David. Life's happening and David is happening in life.I could say that David is an experience in life.Attempting to say that more clearly; Life is certainly happening and David is happening.Period. David is a name given to this body by my parents. It occurs to me in the moment; that David exists in the minds/experience of others.It seems that the body/thing that I am only exists in the seeing of others and as a reflection in a mirror. Actually, I cannot locate I/David other than by reference to others and a mirror and then I am only referring to David's body, speaking and actions.

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:10 pm

Thank you for reply :) good work. Now let's look in the mirror and find which part of the reflection is David? Which part of the body is David? Is there David in a reflection at all? What is being reflected there?

Is there David without story about David?
Where is David now?

In the view right now, you see colours and shapes, is david seeing this? Is is there a witness?

Write what feels true.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:23 pm

My, you do pose interesting questions!

I would suggest that "David" is a conversation. The reflection in the mirror is a human body, but that reflection is not David. No parts of the reflected body are David. That body would be recognized by others as what THEY refer to as "David". Hmm, THAT David exists in their conversations. I would suggest that the "story" of David, in many respects does and would exist without the body. My friends and relatives in Texas refer to and speak of "David" with no body present. To wit, David as conversation.
Now, David is in the conversations of my family, friends and colleagues. It occurs to me that David also exists in my conversation "David"...David is a conversation.

The body I inhabit, the eyes in that body perceive colors and shapes. The name and color of the shapes were handed down from others (parents, etc.). There is no "David in there". The names of what I and others see were invented by previous humans. In many respects we don't know what "that" really looks like. There are no images of anything in one's eyes and certainly no images, as such, in one's brain. To the extent that what I just wrote is "valid" we/I do not know what the world "really" looks like. That said, the world we perceive exists by agreement (conversation). To complete the answer to your question; "David" isn't "being" anything.Two or more humans can agree on what's showing up "out there", but neither/none can say that item exists in the same form as we see it.

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:33 pm

Thank you for your thoughts! Interesting that you say that David is a conversation. I invite you to look into that and see if it's true.
The body I inhabit, the eyes in that body perceive colors and shapes. The name and color of the shapes were handed down from others (parents, etc.). There is no "David in there".
There is confusion here. I inhibits in the body? But there is no David here? Where is this I in the body? Is it sitting in the head looking through the eyes?

So you are saying that there is no David in the body but there is i? Can you clarify that.
And is body perceiving or body is perceived?
Is there a perceiver?

You say that David exists as a conversation. So does batman and Easter bunny. Do they exists in actuality?

Sending love.
Keep digging.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:35 pm

Last things first. Batman and Robin are conversations, no doubt.You ask do they exist in "actuality"? No they are not actual (they are a fiction created out of whole cloth by the story teller/author/producer - all of which are labels for a certain kind of work performed by humans).

"I" is also a conversation.There's no "I" in the brain of the human named "David". I assert that the brain creates a world and lives in that world. Others; parents, teachers, etc. populate the brain with thoughts - including the thought "David".

I get there is no "David" nor is there an "I". Both are constructed in language by the brain, as parents and teachers fill the brain with these concepts/ideas/conversations. There is neither an "I" nor a "David" in the body. I would say that the body is a sensing entity identified by a name and pronoun given by others

Interesting... Isn't the point of this conversation to get that there is no "I"?

Body "perceiving"...hmmm. Perceive def. "become aware or conscious of (something)".
Perception def.: "the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses" and "the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli."

Interesting language in the previous paragraph "...processes..by which an organism becomes aware..."

So the body is a sensing organism that perceives a world and includes itself in that world.The author of this response is definitely a sensing organism that perceives a world. Everything else ("human") is a learned conversation.

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:39 pm

Addendum to my last response.

Didn't we agree at the beginning that using the label "I" was OK to identify the author of these communications. What I said above, notwithstanding, how else can I refer to the writer of this message?


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