Life in Moshen

[JonathanR]

I wonder if there are two things that could be labeled as 'Intention'?..

Could one be the imagined intention of an imagined self?

Could the other be whatever it is that life is up to, smetimes described as the unfolding of events?


Jon

[Moshen]

Hi Jon,

Firstly, all the best for your exhibition.

I've spent the last few days trying out the exercises and examples you outlined. Once again I'm in agreement with you about there being no separate distinction to be found (in anything really, be it self, decisions, intentions, etc) when one is actively engaged in the present and environment.

Which brings me to the essential problem I keep running up against:

You are either in a state of active absorption or you are not. You are either actively consumed and engaged in the present external environment (inclusive of ideas as ideas) or you are adrift in thoughts about the environment and viewing the environment through the lens of those thoughts.

It seems to me (at the moment) that you can change the "lens". You can have understandings, revelations, learnings, perspectives but by necessity of design there is always a lens.

Ideas of separate self, non-segregated self, everything is a dream are all nice and perhaps make for a thinner, clearer lens. Yet a lens they remain.

It's like a couple of people with kaleidoscope googles on arguing about the google settings and construction whenever they aren't focusing on the pattern. Within this analogy, discussions on whether the googles are self adjusting or require manual pattern changing whilst diverting are still just speculations on the googles. Hell, you could even speculate about taking googles off but just like turtles, it's googles all the way down.

Regardless, it seems like you are either immersed in the pattern or speculating on the pattern, it's generation, it's meaning, it's location, it's perception, it's perciever, etc.

Consequently I'm not sure that there is anything that can be gained other manipulating the lens for entertainments sake. Maybe the sense of grandiose wonder and awe are so enlivening is that they are direct harmonic of Consciousness being enraptured with it's own ability to entertain/bullshit itself.

[JonathanR]

Hi Moshen,

Great to hear from you again. The exhibition is some way off yet but preparations are going well thanks.

You are either in a state of active absorption or you are not. You are either actively consumed and engaged in the present external environment (inclusive of ideas as ideas) or you are adrift in thoughts about the environment and viewing the environment through the lens of those thoughts.

Yes. That's how it seems to be.

It seems to me (at the moment) that you can change the "lens". You can have understandings, revelations, learnings, perspectives but by necessity of design there is always a lens.

I would agree with the idea of different viewpoints or lenses, yes. And that perspectives can change. However I find no changer of lenses, only the change its self and the thought such as 'I changed lenses'. It can seem that someone changes the lens, wakes up or whatever but like thoughts in general, how can the 'waking up' be prevented? How can it be made to happen?

Ideas of separate self, non-segregated self, everything is a dream are all nice and perhaps make for a thinner, clearer lens. Yet a lens they remain.

Whilst there are thoughts there is interpretation.

It's like a couple of people with kaleidoscope googles on arguing about the google settings and construction whenever they aren't focusing on the pattern. Within this analogy, discussions on whether the googles are self adjusting or require manual pattern changing whilst diverting are still just speculations on the googles. Hell, you could even speculate about taking googles off but just like turtles, it's googles all the way down.

Arguments seem like a bit of a waste of time, yes.

Regardless, it seems like you are either immersed in the pattern or speculating on the pattern, it's generation, it's meaning, it's location, it's perception, it's perciever, etc.

Yes.

Consequently I'm not sure that there is anything that can be gained other manipulating the lens for entertainments sake. Maybe the sense of grandiose wonder and awe are so enlivening is that they are direct harmonic of Consciousness being enraptured with it's own ability to entertain/bullshit itself.

Ha ha. The Universe is a comedian?

If you like we could pass to the final questions that we always tend to ask here?

Best wishes,

Jon

[Moshen]

Hi,

Nice to talk to you too.

If you like we could pass to the final questions that we always tend to ask here?

Sure thing.

Thanks.

[JonathanR]

Hi Moshen,

Please forgive the delay. Work has been intense. I will post the questions tomorrow.

Jon

[Moshen]

No rush. Whenever is convenient to you.

[JonathanR]

Hi Moshen,

Here are six questions. If you wish, answer the first three then the second three in a separate post, ...or all together.

Really long answers are not necessary, just answer from immediate experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Thank you,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Moshen,

I wonder if you are having difficulty answering the questions?

Question 5 is clearly a lot to do with what we have been talking about. It isn't necessary to write a lot in answer to this. You have already said to me a couple of times that Intention cannot be found in direct experience (or words to that effect).

Warm regards,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi,

I have to let you know thatI will be travelling over the next two weeks. Accessing the internet may well be patchy for me. You may not hear from me if you post, for several days.

You have not written for a while and I wonder if you have decided not to continue? If so I would be grateful if you could please let me know? There are currently a lot of people waiting for a guide on this forum.

Of course, if you are just delayed or you are working on an answer I will be pleased to hear from you.

Many thnaks

Jon

[Moshen]

Hi Jon,

My sincere apologies for the delay in replying, I was unexpectedly caught without easy access for replying to this forum. I apologise for any inconvenience it may have caused you.

Replies as follows:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No & no.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a result of the mental process of classification and abstraction that a person engages in while seeking to impart/extract meaning & understanding from the world. It is in effect it's own category/tag in this filing system and at least until inspection the most consistent and numerous tag within the system.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The initial recognition is somewhat disconcerting. On one hand all of the mental meaning and implications that you have built can and do drop away. But then you realise that you can't hang any meaning on anything any more and that by removing the rules imposed by that particular game you no longer are in that game.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

For me, examining decisions, intention, awareness, etc was helpful in clarifying the boundary between active absorption and engagement and everything else. Especially the clarification of everything else actually amounting to every single thing else.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

To me, all of these concepts exist within the mental speculation area. In essence they are "unreal" in that they are artificial abstraction concepts used mentally for processing and communicating about the flow of life. They don't exist as actual entities/forces/etc. They have some limited value as concepts for mental & communication use but they breakdown when you examine them deeply as there is no actuality underpinning them.

6) Anything to add?

It has been an excellent and thoroughly enjoyable process of clarification. My deepest gratitude for giving me this opportunity.

[JonathanR]

Hi Moshen,

Thank you so much for those answers, which are great!

And thank you, too, for some very interesting posts. All the guides like what you have written and of course you don't need us to tell you what you already 'see'.

On behalf of all of us I'd like to invite you to join our Facebook groups. I will Private Message you about this and it will take two or three days, probably (Right now I am about to board a flight to Mumbai from London,, so a little delay is on the cards)

Very best wishes Moshen.

Remember to pick up my PM when it arrives,

Jon