Curious to learn more

[Bambaji]

Sorry, I don't think that first link works very well! Try this one!! :

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Fran

[Helene]

Hello fran

So confusion is coming up? Please look again and see if there is anything else?So confusion is coming up? Please look again and see if there is anything else?

Your right fran I haven't includes what is experienced within our sensory system .
It feels like a physical uncomfortable sensation which can impact on differing senses at different times depending on the subject /experience .
This could be a feeling of dry mouth , heart racing , sweaty palms , quickening of your breath , changes in body temperature , auditory differences , nausea , physical pain or discomfort .
Fear ? Inability to anticipate consequences ? Previous tagged memory linked to a previous experience ? Entrenched condition behavioural response ?

Thank you for prompting me to look and feel
Something that I'm able to do during my meditation , standing back from any thoughts and being able to look at things from a distance without changing anything in any way. Noticing the sensations within my body as they appear in the moment without worry , judgment or the desire to change .
Any suggestion to practice this more with any excercise would be really welcomed .
Thank you for your time fran
Best wishes
Helene

[Bambaji]

Good morning Helene

Good looking, it does take practice to get into sometimes, but it's worth it! And you've got the quote thing too, excellent!

Fear ? Inability to anticipate consequences ? Previous tagged memory linked to a previous experience ? Entrenched condition behavioural response ?

It may feel that there is a lot going on here, but how much of it is real and how much of it is thought? Take a look.

Fear can be very useful, it often comes in as a protection mechanism, and then it hangs around a lot longer than it is needed! This is something else for you to check out. Look at the fear, thoughts may come up, commentating and labelling, that's fine, let them come and keep looking at the fear. Is the fear protecting something? Ask it, feel the reply. There may not be a reply, this is also fine. Whatever comes up, feel it. Where in the body is it felt, talk to it, invite it to talk to you. And then, when you feel comfortable, take a look behind the fear. Check this out carefully. Is there anything there? Report back on this looking.

Noticing the sensations within my body as they appear in the moment without worry

When you sit with your eyes closed, are you aware of a body? What is felt?

Thank you for your time fran

You're welcome Helene, we're in this together!

Go gently x

[Helene]

Good evening

[quote][/quote]review
my journey has allowed me to notice that thoughts are not real and when I am able to look from a distance am able to notice the physical experiences that have arose , a consequence to ilogical reactions or preconceived ideas .
Looking deeper and questioning /inviting has allowed me to recognise that the feelings change . Not always experienced in the same part of my body , but often feels like my core ...
each emotion tends to have a differing sensory experience within my body .
For example anxiety and feel : can only describe it as a physical tight knot between my belly button and ribs .... a feeling that nothing will comfort ...
But very aware that this is triggered from the mind ...possible negative thoughts , loss , trauma , tragedy and the inability to be present or acceptance .

[quote][/
When you sit with your eyes closed, are you aware of a body? What is felt?

quote]
When I sit with my eyes closed im not initially aware of my body as a whole . It's a feeling of peace initially .
With focus and attention I am able to feel differing sensations in every part of my body , when consciously paying attention to particular areas . Temperature , tingles , pain , tightness , heaviness etc without wanting to change anything or the desire to do something about it .
By expanding my awareness I'm able to notice and feel a sensation of physical presence weather I'm sitting or lying eg the weight of my body within the chair or laying on the firm floor .
Thank you for sending me the link fran to insert the quotes correctly .
I apologise in advance if it takes me a little while to crack this (my I pad is a little uncooperative with copy and pasting at times .
I may not have access to wifi tomorrow as I have a hospital appointment , please accept my apologies in advance if I'm unable to check in following my treatment .
Will most deffinatley be back in touch on Thursday if blips occur .
Thanking you for your time and guidance , so helpful
Helene

[Bambaji]

Hello Helene

Thank you for your post. I hope your hospital visit goes well, and no worries about posting today if it doesn't work for you, but thank you for letting me know.

By expanding my awareness I'm able to notice and feel a sensation of physical presence weather I'm sitting or lying eg the weight of my body within the chair or laying on the firm floor

Let's work with this a little bit. When you are sitting or lying with your eyes closed, can you really know that there is a chair or a floor there? With your eyes closed what is the direct experience? Don't use memory or thought, really look at the direct experience and tell me what you find. Maybe there is just pressure?

Is there really "your" body, or is there just sensation? Again, try to move away from thought and memory, from any knowledge you think you have about this. Just the immediate sensation. What do you find?

With focus and attention I am able to feel differing sensations in every part of my body , when consciously paying attention to particular areas . Temperature , tingles , pain , tightness , heaviness etc without wanting to change anything or the desire to do something about it

Again, sit with your eyes closed and relax. Tune in to the direct experience and explore whether there are really parts to the body. Are there really temperatures/tingles/pain/tightness etc - or are these sensations that arise that are then labelled by thought/mind to be "something"? Pay close attention Helene, and report to me what you find.

Go gently :)

Fran

ps - don't worry about getting the quote function right - it can be tricky on an ipad!!

[Helene]

Hello fran
Thanking you for your patience yesterday .

[review
/quote]
I get where you are coming from now ... it's pressure and the physical sensations that I can feel .

. n, sit with your eyes closed and relax. Tune in to the direct experience and explore whether there are really parts to the body. Are there really temperatures/tingles/pain/tightness etc - or are these sensations that arise that are then labelled by thought/mind to be "something"? Pay close attention Helene, and report to me what you find.

Thank you for reminding me to pay closer attention , maybe it is sensations that arise and then are labelled that does make logical sense .
But how do we then understand what we are experiencing ? Confused.com
I'm going to have another go later , as my interpretation is leading my thinking to be rather muddled right now .
I'm sure I will be able to process this with practice .

Best wishes
Helene

[Bambaji]

Thank you for your post this afternoon Helene.

I have just got in after a very long day, I'll post in the morning.

Goodnight

Fran :)

[Bambaji]

Hi Helene

I'm going to have another go later, as my interpretation is leading my thinking to be rather muddled right now.
I'm sure I will be able to process this with practice

I notice that you feel that you need to process this stuff...do you feel any anxiety about it, about this business of looking for 'self'? Please feel free to say if you feel any sort of fear, we can look in to that.

Go gently

Fran

[Helene]

Hello fran
No I don't have any anxiety about at all , just didn't experience what you suggested so thought I must pay more attention and curiously explore what I'm really experiencing .
My apologies if how I have replied to you may have suggested that .
I don't experience fear ,it's great to be questioned and have an oppotunity to look a little deeper .
My confusion is my interpretation I guesss ,and not possibly expressing myself well enough In my responses to you .

Helene

[Bambaji]

Hi, good evening

No I don't have any anxiety about at all, just didn't experience what you suggested so thought I must pay more attention and curiously explore what I'm really experiencing. My apologies if how I have replied to you may have suggested that

No apology necessary, sometimes language gets in the way of clarity, it is really good to check these things! And to curiously explore your direct experience is exactly what I am asking you to do Helene. Good work!

My confusion is my interpretation I guess, and not possibly expressing myself well enough In my responses to you

Don't worry about this, if I am not clear about your answer I will ask you again until I am sure what you mean :)

So, staying with what you wrote:

I'm going to have another go later, as my interpretation is leading my thinking to be rather muddled right now.
I'm sure I will be able to process this with practice

This isn't really something that can be processed. It can't be thought out or worked on with the mind. How does this sound to you? Do you imagine that there is a you to process your experience? What is there processing anything? Where would this processor be? Do you think there is something separate controlling 'your' experience?

Look at your direct experience. Have 'you' ever processed anything?

Love

Fran

[Helene]

Hello

. This isn't really something that can be processed. It can't be thought out or worked on with the mind. How does this sound to you?

This is what I'm curious about as ..
I'm not sure how how to explain ..helllllppppppp
My thinking is that the mind is like a complex computer , that continually processes to enhance understanding , stores information , as well as using some form of illusionary function . It has the ability to be influenced by the environment and stored information .

it can't be thought out or worked on with the mind

This I am struggling to comprehend , possibilities my nievity.
How do we then make sense of the world ? Form opinions , attitudes , make choices ?

do you imagine that there is a you to process your experience

I suppose I have thought that , as everyone's perception and experience could be so very similar , however the consequences and emotional reactions to varying experiences is so very unique to all .
If there is no perceived 'you ' what is that we all experience .
This is the bit where I feel I'm s bit stuck fran .is it just my interpretation ? Understanding , or ignorance ?

do you think there is something separate controlling 'your'experience

No I don't feel that there is something else controlling ' your' experience. I believe that different emotional reactions are experienced based on our perception and state of mind at the point of the experience .
For example : I was very sick as a child following eating a whole jar of baby beetroot !!! To this day I am unable to eat or face the smell of beetroot over 40 years on . All my 5 senses are linked to this one experience and this tagged memory has never changed ...love the colour of beetroot , buy it for my daughter , but still can not pop onto my plate .

have 'you' ever processed anything

Have I ?? My original thinking is that I have processed lots of bits and bobs along the way . Memory and information strored has allowed Helene to grow and develop , enhance competence , learn , and adapt .
Like a story in a way , but differing choices and reactions to the environment lead to differing personal experiences and outcomes .
Wishing you a pleasant weekend ahead
Helene

[Bambaji]

Hello Helene, thank you for your post

My thinking is that the mind is like a complex computer, that continually processes to enhance understanding, stores information, as well as using some form of illusionary function. It has the ability to be influenced by the environment and stored information

Maybe the brain is capable of complex processing, but does that mean that there is an 'I' doing the processing? Is there a little guy sitting in a chair behind the scenes, watching a screen and pressing buttons to make things happen? Can that controller be found? Where is information stored? Is there a container somewhere full of information? Have you experienced this in any way? Can you actually see the mind making decisions? Could you please look for 'mind'.

How do we then make sense of the world ? Form opinions, attitudes, make choices?

Could you look and report on whether you can experience 'a mind' making choices and decisions. Here are a couple of exercises to explore these concepts:

1) Choice. Place hands on a table in front of you, palm down. In a moment one hand will get raised but not the other. One hand will stay put. the other will go right up in the air. So before that happens, look for the 'choice-point' where a choice between hands is made. See if it is possible to find that choice being made? The exact moment?

2) Decisions. In a moment, get up and make a cup of something to drink. Once the drink is made, come back and read the rest of this exercise.


Now, was there a decision to get up off the chair or did that happen anyway? Was there a decision to control one leg and the other so that walking to kitchen could happen, or did that also just happen? When you arrived in the kitchen was there a decision about which drink to have? Was there a decision to switch on the kettle or pour the liquid into the cup?

It's quite possible that thoughts will say 'I did this' or 'I decided' but in the moment of each action is a choice or decision being made?

What is actually going on?

This is the bit where I feel I'm a bit stuck Fran. Is it just my interpretation? Understanding, or ignorance?

Don't worry about this Helene, we will keep digging away at it. Look and see, are you actually experiencing "stuck" or is this just a thought? What about interpretation, understanding and ignorance - are they real experiences or are they thoughts? There are no right or wrong answers here, I am just after your Direct Experience.

Thoughts come up and they can have different content, but they are still just thoughts. They label, narrate, own - but are still just thoughts. And while thoughts are always a commentary on life, they are NOT the direct experience of it. Can you get a feel for this? I can give you an exercise to help experience this another time. You've probably got enough to be going on with today!!

I look forward to your report :)

Fran

[Helene]

Morning Fran

.

Maybe the brain is capable of complex processing, but does that mean that there is an 'I' doing the processing? Is there a little guy sitting in a chair behind the scenes, watching a screen and pressing buttons to make things happen? Can that controller be found? Where is information stored? Is there a container somewhere full of information? Have you experienced this in any way? Can you actually see the mind making decisions? Could you please look for 'mind'

Thank you for prompting me to consider this more .
I don't think that the mind is hard wired as it is for ever changing , more like centre for storing the information received moment to moment .
It doesn't mean that there is an 'I ' just a perception of unique wholeness with no controller to be found .
The information stored I feel is based upon memory and our reactions to events .
I don't think I have ever really looked to deep at this , hence my need to be guided in order to make sense if something that I have probably took for granted rather than questioning at all .

can you explore a mind making decisions and choices

The excercises were a really useful,way to deeper my thinking .
Don't think I can communicate the complexities in writing .....
Reflecting on both excercises we function automatically , the body moving in a sophisticated way without thinking .
The promt ie go and make a drink of some sort : no thinking involved at all , body and mind working together to complete a familiar task all occurring automatically.
Did I really want a drink ? Did I choose this ? No I carried out the task as I was asked to do so . I wasn't thirsty and chose coffee and drank it anyway following making it .
Descisions were made as I could of left the spillage on my work top , but cleaned this up before going back to the living room . I could of just left it but didn't .
Not sure why !!! Other than I would find coffee drips on my worktop visually disturbing and am conditioned to clean carry out life learnt tasks .

I can see that thoughts are thoughts , which are very different from direct experiences .
These excercises helped in deepening my thinking
Many thanks
Helene

[Bambaji]

Hi Helene, good afternoon

I don't think that the mind is hard wired as it is for ever changing, more like centre for storing the information received moment to moment

It is for ever changing - good looking, yes :) I asked you: where is information stored? Is there a container somewhere full of information? Have you experienced this in any way? Can you actually see the mind making decisions? Could you please look for 'mind'.

Please really look at this, no thinking, just looking. The "information" you say is stored - is this just thought arising after another thought arising after another thought.......... and is it really stored anywhere - is this possible? Please LOOK :) and report.

I don't think I have ever really looked to deep at this, hence my need to be guided in order to make sense of something that I have probably took for granted rather than questioning at all

Yes, we take so much for granted and so much is habit and so much is conditioning. You are doing great work in looking and being open to different possibilities. At first it can be quite challenging to see things from a different perspective, but once that shift is made you will find it all begins to fall in to place.

The exercises were a really useful way to deepen my thinking

Lol!! No!!!! This is not about deepening your thinking Helene - thinking is just thinking, thoughts are just thoughts. Where do you find the self that is deepening thinking? Whether a thought is deep or shallow is just another thought! Can you see this?

Reflecting on both exercises we function automatically, the body moving in a sophisticated way without thinking

Yes, although thoughts may still arise. You have the thought that the body is moving in a sophisticated way - it could also be SEEN in direct experience to just be moving. There is a thought there, and quietly added on is another thought that almost goes unnoticed.

Here is another exercise: Sit with your eyes closed and listen....it doesn't matter what sounds are around, you are not trying to pinpoint anything, just sitting with the sense of hearing for a few minutes.

Ok, as you were sitting were you aware of what sounds were around you AND were you aware of thoughts ABOUT those sounds? Some thoughts may be very realistic and compelling, but what was the direct experience? Ideas can arise about WHAT you are hearing, but these are stories compared to the direct experience of hearing - please LOOK and report your direct experience.

I can see that thoughts are thoughts, which are very different from direct experiences

Thoughts ARE thoughts only, yes, excellent looking Helene!! Thoughts do come up in direct experience so the ACTUAL thought can be said to be real, but the content of thought is usually judgement or commentary or ownership etc - and it's the CONTENT that is not the direct experience. Can you see this?


Would you please repeat the two exercises that I gave you - you didn't give me any report on the first one about Choice and I feel the second exercise would be worth repeating:

1) Choice. Place your hands on a table in front of you, palm down. In a moment one hand will get raised but not the other. One hand will stay put. the other will go right up in the air. So before that happens, look for the 'choice-point' where a choice between hands is made. See if it is possible to find that choice being made? The exact moment?

2) Decisions. In a moment, get up and make a cup of something to drink. Once the drink is made, come back and read the rest of this exercise.


Now, was there a decision to get up off the chair or did that happen anyway? Was there a decision to control one leg and the other so that walking to kitchen could happen, or did that also just happen? When you arrived in the kitchen was there a decision about which drink to have? Was there a decision to switch on the kettle or pour the liquid into the cup?

It's quite possible that thoughts will say 'I did this' or 'I decided' but in the moment of each action is a choice or decision being made?

Please read the instructions carefully and answer as fully as you can. Look for the decision point / the choice point, can you find it? For example, can you pinpoint the EXACT moment that you decided to clean up the spillage?

I appreciate that I am asking you to repeat tasks, but I feel that you are close to seeing the difference between Direct Experience and ....well everything else!! Look, look, look - direct experience is what is happening all the time, tune in to it.

This is quite a long post - lots of exercises :) Let me know if you want a bit more time to work through them. And if these exercises don't work for you, there are many others I can introduce that may be more effective. We each have different ways of seeing things, no one method works for everyone.

Go gently :)

Love

Fran

[Helene]

Hello Fran
Thank you for your advice .
I think I'm going to need a little time if that's ok as I haven't felt very well from Sunday .
I hopefully will be feeling much better tomorrow , and will report back if that's ok .
Best wishes
Helene