Seeking a Buddhist Guide.

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Xain,

Good, it feels like we're making progress. (ok, I know, no-one is making progress...)

Not much time for this today, so I'll just look into the first part of what you wrote, and leave 'control' for tomorrow.

Right now there is 'an experience' or perhaps 'experience'.
Is the experience happening to a person? Is it happening to a body? Is the experience personal?
Compare what you find in the experience itself, to what THOUGHTS suggest.

OK, it's clear that there is an idea of a person here, but the experience isn't happening 'to' anyone; it's just happening.

It's not happening 'to' a 'body'. There's an idea of a body, which thought suggests is owned or controlled by, or part of, a person. In experience, part of what's happening is experiences that thought attributes to 'a body': fingers moving, warm feelings in the feet, etc. But it's clear that all these concepts: experience, happening, fingers, moving, warmth, feeling, feet, attribution, thought, etc. are just thoughts and ideas.

Then 'is the experience personal? None of it is happening to anyone, so in that sense it's impersonal. But 'impersonal' can sound a bit cold and abstract, while experience feels very alive and kind of intimate. And it's clear that 'personal and impersonal' are just more conceptual categories, and not experience.

Out of time. So 'I' get to stay in control, at least until tomorrow!

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[CaptainNemo]

We'll do 'control' first.

Here's a very simple exercise you can do while sat down.

Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which. Actively make a choice of one hand or the other.
Then when you've chosen one and you feel you wish to, raise that hand into the air.

Do this as many times as you like, but each time you do it - Inquire on this:

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?
What exactly is making that happen?
What do you FIND?

Perhaps make the distinction between what you can find (or cannot find) in the experience, and what the content of thoughts might suggest.

Hi Xain,

OK, so thoughts say that first 'I' decide, and then 'I' go right ahead and raise my hand. Experientially, first there's a rather weird and murky process of 'deciding', which is hard to talk about: some kind of energetic movement in the body, along with a process in which awareness increases in one hand and the lights go down on the other one. There's also a feeling that what's happening consciously isn't the whole story. Then the hand comes up, and there's a sense of watching and waiting for it to do so. All I can say is that partly in dependence on some process that 'I' call 'deciding', at some point the hand rises up...

So no controller and no control.

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[Xain]

Just a quick mention about 'there is someone' and 'there is no-one'.

If we take Santa Claus as an analogy, we begin with the belief when we are young that he is a real person.
As we get older we realise there is no such 'real person' as Santa Claus, and instead he is just a myth. A creation of the imagination - A belief - A thought.
But we don't flip now to the new saying 'No-one left the presents'. Instead, we simply recognise that Santa is just an idea - And we continue to enjoy saying 'Santa left the presents' for future generation of children (and adult children!)
We don't go from 'Santa does it' to 'No-one does it' - Instead we still say 'Santa left the presents' but we go from the original belief that there WAS a real person delivering them, to the realisation that he was never anything more than a belief - An idea. That's all he ever was.

OK, it's clear that there is an idea of a person here, but the experience isn't happening 'to' anyone; it's just happening.

Ok, good.
Again, touching on what I suggested above . . . can you see that saying 'the experience is happening to no-one' doesn't really fit? Would it be better to say that anything suggested as the experiencER . . . is from thought - An idea - A belief.
'I am experiencing', 'Body is experiencing', 'Brain is experiencing' . . . these are all the Santa Claus . . . these are all the ideas and beliefs.

In experience, part of what's happening is experiences that thought attributes to 'a body': fingers moving, warm feelings in the feet, etc. But it's clear that all these concepts: experience, happening, fingers, moving, warmth, feeling, feet, attribution, thought, etc. are just thoughts and ideas.

Yes, as you say 'Thought attributes these things to it'.

And it's clear that 'personal and impersonal' are just more conceptual categories, and not experience.

Yes, yes, YES - Even the IMPERSONAL is more conceptual stuff (no-one, nobody).
It is enough to recognise it as being conceptual. That's all that is needed to realise it is not inherently 'true'.

OK, so thoughts say that first 'I' decide, and then 'I' go right ahead and raise my hand.

So what was the 'I' that raised the hand?
Something that was found? Or only the content of thoughts?

in which awareness increases in one hand and the lights go down on the other one.

We can do 'focus of attention' later on.

Try the same exercise, but this time with 'CHOICE'

1) Can what is choosing the hand (left or right) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found that is choosing?
What exactly is making the choice?
What do you FIND?

What proof do you have that an actual choice is being made!?!
(Not an assumed choice, a 'real' choice).

Xain ♥

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Xain,

Thanks for the latest hrlpful comments. I appreciate all the time you give to doing this.

I said:

OK, it's clear that there is an idea of a person here, but the experience isn't happening 'to' anyone; it's just happening.

And you replied:

Ok, good.
Again, touching on what I suggested above . . . can you see that saying 'the experience is happening to no-one' doesn't really fit? Would it be better to say that anything suggested as the experiencER . . . is from thought - An idea - A belief.
'I am experiencing', 'Body is experiencing', 'Brain is experiencing' . . . these are all the Santa Claus . . . these are all the ideas and beliefs.

Mm, it's always difficult using words to talk about what is beyond their sphere. I 'get' that Santa Claus is a myth, imagined, an idea, and I'm in no danger of denying the experience of receiving the presents that appear moment by moment in life. (I'm not getting nihilistic here.) And I wouldn't say that 'experience is happening to no-one', because that is still all caught up with accepting or denying a self. 'Self' is just a set of ideas, and even being bound up with no-self is just prolonging the agony -- another way for the flow of experience not to be fully relaxed and at ease. However, once it's clear that concepts are concepts and experience is experience, then using terms like 'me' or 'self' is no longer a problem, just as we as adults can enjoy playing the game of waiting for Santa Claus to come down the chimney. '

Then:

So what was the 'I' that raised the hand?
Something that was found? Or only the content of thoughts?

No 'I', no raiser of the hand was found. I mentioned it because i thought you were inviting me to contrast what thought expects to find and what's there in experience.

We can do 'focus of attention' later on.

Yes please.

Try the same exercise, but this time with 'CHOICE'

1) Can what is choosing the hand (left or right) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found that is choosing?
What exactly is making the choice?
What do you FIND?
What proof do you have that an actual choice is being made!?!
(Not an assumed choice, a 'real' choice).

Firstly, if there's no control, no 'free will', then there can't be 'free choice' either. But that's just a logical deduction. So, if I do the exercise of choosing which hand to raise, how high to raise it, etc. I can't find a chooser, and it's clear that choice, hand, choosing, decision and chooser are all concepts. One hand moves; the other doesn't. End of story.

However, on the relative level, karma still has to mean something...

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[Xain]

However, on the relative level, karma still has to mean something...

How do you mean?

Xain ♥

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Xain,

You wondered about what I meant when I said:

However, on the relative level, karma still has to mean something...

Well, i don't really want to get into a level of discussion which might take us away from actual experience. Let's just say that I've known some people who feel they've 'seen through' and then decided that because there's 'no-one here' and 'no such thing as choice' it doesn't matter what they do. That doesn't turn out well...

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[Xain]

Your comments and replies to the guidance are quite strange.

I can't find a chooser, and it's clear that choice, hand, choosing, decision and chooser are all concepts. One hand moves; the other doesn't. End of story.

However, on the relative level, karma still has to mean something...

Let's just say that I've known some people who feel they've 'seen through' and then decided that because there's 'no-one here' and 'no such thing as choice' it doesn't matter what they do.

You just said that choice, choosing and decision are all concepts.
You then said 'They decided'.

Xain ♥

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Xain,

Your comments and replies to the guidance are quite strange.

Ok. The reason I'm here is to get free of the weird and wonderful ideas I have about how things are.

You just said that choice, choosing and decision are all concepts.
You then said 'They decided'.

Well, we're stuck with having to communicate in concepts. I can just write nothing, or put everything in inverted commas, but unless I do that it's going to look contradictory all the time. I can see that I don't decide anything, and still say 'I've decided to take the dog to the vet's on Tuesday''. One s how things are; the other is a useful description, provided i don't get fooled into thinking it's more than a description.

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[Xain]

I don't decide anything

What is the 'I' that isn't deciding?

Xain ♥

[CaptainNemo]

Don't know.

A sense of 'I' is there when there are thoughts about self, but they're just thoughts.

Or sometimes even when there are no thoughts found, there's a sense of tightening around something, as if there was an emotional equivalent of 'thoughts about me'. But they're just feelings and emotions.

And looking out the window at the hills, there's a sense of being conscious, but the idea of it being 'my cnsciousness' is just a thought.

I can explore all that, and see that no-one 'isn't deciding' anything. But it's like a Terminator movie. You can completely crush a view of self (or in this case, see through it) and think 'job done', and then next thing you know, aargh, it reconstitutes itself, and there's the illusion of a self again. So the seeing obviously isn't going far enough. Maybe I need to go back to my old Zen-style sitting, taking it like a koan: What is the 'I' that isn't deciding?'

Nemo.

[Xain]

Hi Nemo

Ok. The reason I'm here is to get free of the weird and wonderful ideas I have about how things are.

The guidance isn't about reinforcing your beliefs - It is about examining them.

I am going on a silent retreat for ten days from Friday, and will be unable to respond.
If this is a problem, I can request and see if I can get another guide to stand-in for me for that time.

Xain ♥

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Xain,

You quoted me saying:

Ok. The reason I'm here is to get free of the weird and wonderful ideas I have about how things are.

and replied:

The guidance isn't about reinforcing your beliefs - It is about examining them.

But I don't get why you said that... I'm working on the basis that, with your help, I'll get free of whatever 'strange' views I may have by examining them and comparing them to what I find in experience. I'm looking to find a self and only coming up with thoughts, etc. Was my last post off track, and not examining beliefs?

Anyway, it's great you have the opportunity to be on retreat for 10 days. I can keep on working on all this, and we can pick things up again when you're back.

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[CaptainNemo]

Hello again Xain,

I hope you had a very good time on retreat. I thought I'd give you a brief update on the last 10 days, for whenever you're ready to pick things up again. I've carried on the explorration process, not in a very systematic way, but looking at what is happening whenever a sense of self is clearly present, and also carrying on looking into the issue of control.

I still can't find a self anywhere, and there are long chunks of the day when there isn't even any lingering sense of a non-specific or non-locatable self. There's just experience. Then occasionally there's a sense of being a 'me' again, and needing to make things happen in a particular way. That quickly feels artificial and unnecessary, and I relax it. Then there's another chunk of time when 'I'm absent', until the next time that there's a 'me' trying to do something and i catch it and relax again.

BTW, I'm also noticing a great caringness around people. I was in the little town near where I live this morning, and there was great delight in seeing all the shapes and sizes of human beings, and love for them, watching their minds being expressed in how they looked and moved. Also, this is a beautiful time of year, and I'm more lost in it and affected by it than ever before.

So good things are coming out of this.

Kind regards,
Nemo.

[Xain]

Then occasionally there's a sense of being a 'me' again, and needing to make things happen in a particular way.

Well perhaps there might be thoughts appearing suggesting a 'me' is making things happen.
But how do you mean 'a sense'?

A sense appearing / experienced by what?

until the next time that there's a 'me' trying to do something and i catch it and relax again.

I understand. Are you expecting this to be any different?
We can talk about how thoughts / automatically believing thoughts see to create the illusion of an 'I' in control.
But is there an 'I' in control of even this?

Is there an 'I' experiencing the thoughts? Is there an 'I' that is sometimes fooled and sometimes not fooled?

BTW, I'm also noticing a great caringness around people. I was in the little town near where I live this morning, and there was great delight in seeing all the shapes and sizes of human beings, and love for them, watching their minds being expressed in how they looked and moved. Also, this is a beautiful time of year, and I'm more lost in it and affected by it than ever before.

So good things are coming out of this.

Yes, yes - They do.
In fact each realisation seems to make this deeper.
I suggest to people that (in a manner of speaking) this and further realisations allow you to 'get out of your own way' and allow things to naturally and spontaneously appear.
The ego dissolves and life itself does it's thing; Caring and altruistic by it's own nature (which is the realisation of non-separateness).

Xain ♥

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Xain,

Welcome back.

I said:

Then occasionally there's a sense of being a 'me' again, and needing to make things happen in a particular way.

And you responded:

Well perhaps there might be thoughts appearing suggesting a 'me' is making things happen.
But how do you mean 'a sense'?

By 'a sense' I mean thoughts, but also feelings in the body that are closely identified with an idea of self. They're in the solar plexus area, and I went into them in meditation this morning, and of course found that they were just feelings and sensations. That work feels as if it has freed things up more, and there's been some deep relaxing going on during the day.

A sense appearing / experienced by what?

Experienced by no-one. By awareness, by mind, by themselves...

Me: until the next time that there's a 'me' trying to do something and i catch it and relax again.

You: I understand. Are you expecting this to be any different?
We can talk about how thoughts / automatically believing thoughts see to create the illusion of an 'I' in control.
But is there an 'I' in control of even this?

There's an expectation that over time, as the seeing goes deeper, that sense of 'me' -- that unproductive way in which mind habitually functions -- will happen less and less. But I can also see that it isn't a problem, or something to get rid of, because there's no-one that it could be a problem for. So no, there isn't anyone at the controls; 'I' am a driverless vehicle...

I'm getting how crucial the exploration of control/no control is. Half a dozen times today, when there have been thoughts of self and an associated tensing in the body, awareness has explored 'who is in control?' and 'is there really any control?' and mind and body have relaxed and functioned more freely and spontaneously again.

Is there an 'I' experiencing the thoughts? Is there an 'I' that is sometimes fooled and sometimes not fooled?

No, there's just thinking, just thoughts of 'I'. And there's nobody who's fooled or not fooled. It's more like awareness loses track of how things are, and thoughts get taken as real.

Mm, and all this leading in the direction of natural compassion, life caring for itself. It's really motivating to keep exploring more and more deeply.

Kind regards,
Nemo.