Looking for a guide to explore the changes of life

[Ingen]

Good looking :)

Even "warm tingly sensation" is a thought but feels less processed

yes –  is just another thought, replacing the one before ("my left thigh hurts")
which was replacing the one before, which was replacing the one before etc. Some are "positive", some are "negative", some are "less processed", some refer to an imaginary story. One thought at the time.

This leads back to my question that you haven't answered:

I see that the critical inner thoughts are not helpful or what I am, but they have built a nest over the past 38 years!

It may seem like there is a nest, but is that true? How many thoughts are there in direct experience? Look!

The "nest of thoughts" that has supposedly accumulated over the years – is it really there, right now?

Adam is just a story that uses those phenomena as details to make the story center around a person with those experiences.

Sounds true. How does this tie in with the anxiety you had mentioned before? Can you give an example?

[adam_brunt]

The "nest of thoughts" that has supposedly accumulated over the years – is it really there, right now?

If I try to find the nest of thoughts, there is no nest. There are automatic patterns that are noticed and attached to the idea of a nest of thoughts that Adam thinks. It is a way to describe thinking, but it does not really exist. I don't know what I'm going to think, so I can't say what thoughts are awaiting to be thought that fit into the pattern that has been associated with Adam.

The nest is not real.

Adam is just a story that uses those phenomena as details to make the story center around a person with those experiences.

Sounds true. How does this tie in with the anxiety you had mentioned before? Can you give an example?

The anxiety is thoughts, feelings, sensations and reaction of the body to those things as if they are dangerous. When those phenomena are seen as just happening and happening to no one, then there is no one in danger. All the interpretation of feelings that develop into anxious or panic feelings are thoughts. Those thoughts are not rational and they misinterpret reality. No one is operating the body and creating the anxiety responses, but it can appear that someone must react to the feelings of anxiety.

[Ingen]

If I try to find the nest of thoughts, there is no nest. There are automatic patterns that are noticed and attached to the idea of a nest of thoughts that Adam thinks

I am following up on this, because there is still a subtle idea of a container of sorts, which is now replacing the idea of "self".
You can see there is no nest (-container). Fine. How do you know there are "automatic patterns"? The idea of a pattern is more abstract than that of a nest, but: What evidence is there right now for a thought pattern?

Your last paragraph about anxiety is very general, an abstract description about what "can appear". I'd like you to catch some anxiety thoughts and -feelings in real time, and describe what IS appearing, for you. Give an example!

[adam_brunt]

You can see there is no nest (-container). Fine. How do you know there are "automatic patterns"? The idea of a pattern is more abstract than that of a nest, but: What evidence is there right now for a thought pattern?

The automatic patterns are certain types of thoughts that come up in certain situations that are maladaptive in nature or associated with negative thinking. It's a psychology term. Since I can't stop thoughts or choose only good thoughts, then some will perhaps be negative thoughts. It feels like discussing psychology is butting heads with what is being looked at here. All we are concerned with here is looking and seeing that the you taken to be real is illusory. Is that correct?

I'd like you to catch some anxiety thoughts and -feelings in real time, and describe what IS appearing, for you. Give an example!

One anxiety theme with many different thoughts is fear of flying and heights. My wife and I have been discussing a trip to see her family this summer. It has been a couple of years since I have gone back with her on this yearly trip. There is anxiety of traveling and being up high in a plane. I wasn't always like this! It started a few years ago, 2012, while flying. It was my first panic attack and it happened in a plane it was horrible.

The thoughts around traveling anxiety and this trip are that I do not want to be up in the air so high and that I do not want to die in a plane. There is a fear of doing something that will be potentially uncomfortable. In addition to anxious thoughts there just anxious feelings in general when I think of having to travel across the US. I have developed
more anxiety towards death as I get older as well. Just general feelings that make it difficult to fully relax and be present sometimes.

So, I could be talking to my wife about the trip and I'll think "I don't want to do this" "I am not doing this". But, I will also think "I want to do this because there is really nothing to worry about." Uncertainty in life is a given, but this uncertainty is equated with danger in my body. Even if I do not have any dangerous thoughts while flying there is the feeling of danger.

I have flown since developing this anxiety and it is getting better.

Back to this:

I am following up on this, because there is still a subtle idea of a container of sorts, which is now replacing the idea of "self".

There is the subtle idea of a person/container. There is the belief that even though there may be no one doing or deciding each and everything that occurs with the body there is still a set of behaviors/preferences/personality/emotions that are particular to this unique mind-body organism. Those things are still Adam even if they happen without control. It is a subtle identification. I know that I exist and interact in the world with a set of associated behaviors. I am recognizable by my appearance and traits. This gives a subtle feeling of ME. It feels like even with spontaneous arsing of characteristics and phenomena there is a unique expression of how this mind-body organism experiences the phenomena. This is the guy that got married, goes to work, has a 2 month old son...not that guy, he is different from me. I can relate to our similarities, but I know that we are different in our characteristics and this is what keeps the sense of a separate self going.

I can see there is a lot of thinking in this response, but I want to get it out there as part of the understanding of where the "self" is still living!

[Ingen]

It feels like discussing psychology is butting heads with what is being looked at here

What we are looking at here is butting heads with about everything. Actually, it is pulling the rug from under the world as you know it. Life, death, everything. The main focus on this forum is to look at the illusory nature of self – but with that insight comes sooner or later the question about the reality of "reality".

But for now we're not even done with "self". You do see that thoughts can't be controlled, but you try to do exactly that with judging them as "positive" or "maladaptive". By doing that, you stay in the story about Adam.

Is there a thought pattern now, in direct experience? "Pattern" requires repetition, time, memory – and you have already looked into that.

there is still a set of behaviors/preferences/personality/emotions that are particular to this unique mind-body organism

It might sound radical, but what evidence is there for the existence of a mind-body-organism? Go back to the sensory experiments. Can you see/hear/feel a boundary between body and world?

How do you know this is not a dream /hallucination / computer simulation?

[adam_brunt]

But for now we're not even done with "self". You do see that thoughts can't be controlled, but you try to do exactly that with judging them as "positive" or "maladaptive". By doing that, you stay in the story about Adam.

Is there a thought pattern now, in direct experience? "Pattern" requires repetition, time, memory – and you have already looked into that.

There just thoughts and then they are "thought" into a group called a pattern. Before the thought about them they just are thoughts. It seems helpful to find patterns, but that is all part of thinking. I think that if I have an uncomfortable thought it is judged, or I am judged for having it. And to try and stop uncomfortable thoughts I may try to find a strategy, but that strategy is just more thoughts that don't address the fact that I do not control thoughts. It does appear that some thoughts are more helpful than others.

Each and every "now", there is no pattern of thoughts. Though, there can be conditioning.

It might sound radical, but what evidence is there for the existence of a mind-body-organism? Go back to the sensory experiments. Can you see/hear/feel a boundary between body and world?

How do you know this is not a dream /hallucination / computer simulation?

I don't know for certain. But, I do know that those suggestions of what reality may be are concepts and thoughts, so they do know reflect what reality really is. Any words we use are pointing to something that may not be the case, but feels accurate enough. Since we can not accurately describe with words it feels like reality exists prior to words, thoughts, and ideas. And, there is no person as well. Just thoughts and ideas. The experience of reality is person-less sensations happening to no one.

I can not see/hear/feel a boundary without thought labeling a boundary. The belief that there is a boundary is just like the belief that there is a person or a Santa! It is passed on and taken for fact until it is questioned and observed.

[Ingen]

Each and every "now", there is no pattern of thoughts. Though, there can be conditioning.

How many "nows" are there?
And how can there be conditioning if there is no pattern of thoughts?

I don't quite understand what you say in the two last paragraphs. Would you try to answer again:
What evidence do you find for the existence of a mind-body-organism?

And if you don't get dizzy by the implications of the answer of those questions, you haven't looked thoroughly enough.

[adam_brunt]

How many "nows" are there?
And how can there be conditioning if there is no pattern of thoughts?

Just the now that's happening now. I'm not sure if you can even give it a number. Either continuously 1 now or an infinity of nows that have and will continue to pass. Now seems to be a mental process of creating concepts. Directly, in my experience I can't find 1 now separate from another.

The use of the term mental conditioning is barrowed from J.Krishnamurti. I think I just used it because I figured he must be correct if he used it himself. But, that would not be looking at direct experience for myself.

What evidence do you find for the existence of a mind-body-organism?

None. I'm just using terms from other people. Mind-body-organism is from Ramesh S. Balsekar who was one of Nisargadatta's interpreters. It's concept and I find no proof. There is the apparent need to classify things from a human perspective, but that is all.

And if you don't get dizzy by the implications of the answer of those questions, you haven't looked thoroughly enough.

It is dizzying! In fact, I have spent enough time being freaked out by those types of ideas that it has contributed to my general anxiety. It is very disorienting. Makes me question what is real. Just thinking about if I am really real gives me the same feeling. It's not real danger though, just disorienting.

When I said:

I can not see/hear/feel a boundary without thought labeling a boundary. The belief that there is a boundary is just like the belief that there is a person or a Santa! It is passed on and taken for fact until it is questioned and observed.

I mean that I do not experience a boundary it is only thought. The idea of a boundary is something we learn without questioning it. In this discussion the idea of a boundary is being looked at, correct?

[adam_brunt]

How do you know this is not a dream /hallucination / computer simulation?

I don't know for certain, but I know that labeling "all this" as any of those things is using a concept to describe what reality is. That does not seem correct. Thinking about that is dizzying too!

[Ingen]

Dearest Adam,

it is good that you start to question the words of the sages. Some texts are useful at some stages for some people, but it is infinitely more valuable to look yourself, (and maybe compare notes), instead of assuming that they must know, because they are famous. The same applies here. Don't believe anything I'm saying.

In fact, I have spent enough time being freaked out by those types of ideas that it has contributed to my general anxiety. It is very disorienting.

It sounds to me like you have gone too far to not go all the way, and hanging to the crumbling remnants of the old solid world does more harm than good.

You mentioned fear of death in one of your prior posts. Seeing through the conceptualization of life should get rid of the concept of death. But it might be difficult to do the investigation in the stage of life you're in. I mean - is it possible to question the existence of time and space if your baby is sleeping in the room next door? On the other hand – as soon as he starts crying, no conceptualization is necessary to go there and take care of him. From my experience family life gets better if you don't "externalize" them.

I do not experience a boundary it is only thought.

Exactly.

Let's look at sleep.
How do you experience (deep) sleep?
How do you know that you sleep 8 hours at night? (or 5 or 2, whatever baby allows...)

[adam_brunt]

I've been traveling without my computer, so I will respond when it's possible. Hope you are well!

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[adam_brunt]

I mean - is it possible to question the existence of time and space if your baby is sleeping in the room next door? On the other hand – as soon as he starts crying, no conceptualization is necessary to go there and take care of him. From my experience family life gets better if you don't "externalize" them.

I am not clear by what you mean by the word "them" in the last sentence.

I mean - is it possible to question the existence of time and space if your baby is sleeping in the room next door?

It is possible to see the way reality gets transformed into thought, and collections of thoughts, so it is not too strange for me to question the existence of time and space!

You mentioned fear of death in one of your prior posts. Seeing through the conceptualization of life should get rid of the concept of death.

This is bringing me back to my introduction to my first J. Krishnamurti book. When I looked at everything as being conceptualization, it was very disorienting. I felt unable to relate to the world. It seemed that if everyone is conceptualizing and delusional, that everything is "fake." I struggled with that feeling for many years unresolved. It still lingers in thoughts, but not as intensely. I think I came to understand that I was also participating in conceptualization by believing the thoughts I had about others. I would think one of the side effects of seeing there is no I is that you see that there are no others as well.

I don't remember always having a fear of death. It is a more recent thing that has came about in the past 5 years or so. I'm not really sure why I ever had a fear of death. It doesn't exist without thought when I look for it. When I look at a particular fear it only appears attached to thought. An unconfirmed set of beliefs about something are what come up with the thought.

On the other hand – as soon as he starts crying, no conceptualization is necessary to go there and take care of him.

The moments I spend with my son are moments with another person that I am learning about each moment. He is my son, but he is also not my son. He is prior to the labeling and he is just alive. He requires my care, but I do not own him. I respond to him immediately without constantly thinking about what to do. There is intelligence responding. I do not feel in control of it, but I do observe how I respond. There is a profound sense of "I" not being there when I take care of my son. There is response in the moment that unfolds and feels just like whatever is happening is happening.

Let's look at sleep.
How do you experience (deep) sleep?
How do you know that you sleep 8 hours at night? (or 5 or 2, whatever baby allows...)

I experience deep sleep after it happens by looking at the clock and thinking I must have been asleep before this since some time has apparently passed. I guess I could watch myself sleep if I made a recording, but that would be experiencing deep sleep as it happens in the moment. If I look, I have no experience of deep sleep only the after effects through direct experience.

I know how many hours I sleep by using a clock to track the passing of time. I am not aware of each minute of those hours as they pass.

[Ingen]

Hi Adam,

I'll be traveling the next week without internet, and I can't answer right now, but I'll ask Bill to take over for some days. Only so much:

From my experience family life gets better if you don't "externalize" them.

With "them" I meant the family members.

Talk to you in a week or so!

[adam_brunt]

By externalize do you mean seeing them as separate from you as a person so to speak?

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[adam_brunt]

Have safe travels Ingen!

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