Truth through experience

[Bananafish]

Good morning from Japan, Starr. :)

Today I might be too busy to post a reply. I may send you a partial reply, and in that case, please just read them and Look as directed, without replying to me. (You could just post saying hello, by the way :) ) Please reply when I finished taking a look at all the points you made in your post.

Warmest regards,

Bananafish

[Starr]

Good morning from Japan, Starr. :)

Today I might be too busy to post a reply. I may send you a partial reply, and in that case, please just read them and Look as directed, without replying to me. (You could just post saying hello, by the way :) ) Please reply when I finished taking a look at all the points you made in your post.

Warmest regards,

Bananafish

No problem my friend. Please take all the time required. That you respond at all is very appreciated so please always do so at your convince.

Starr

[Bananafish]

Somehow managed to finish the planned work earlier than expected. :)
Here's my full reply.

Experience is always in flux though. So that sounds heard now can still seem separate from sounds heard later in the day. Separation of experiences themselves seems to occur in time. The sub dividing of experience has been seen to be illusory but that the totality of of experience is changing such that one total experience still seems it could be separate from another. They are connected in time but different. Although it would be tough to nail down any particular moment in experience to compare it to another moment. Its always kind of flowing in such a way as to almost defy any attempt to capture a cross section of it. Questions please.

Let's take a look at time; past and future.

Visualise a scene from your memory.
Would you call that past?

So movement seems to the only thing present in every collision and therefore the best choice for what crash points to.

What about everything else? Isn't it about movement and change?

And is there a subject that changes, or is it that
movement and change simply ARE?

Driving tends to happen on auto pilot. Most of the time attention is floating in thought. Then someone hits the horn and instantly attention goes from lazily wandering thoughts to a actively surveying the surroundings. The heart skips a beat and every detail of the surroundings becomes crystal clear. This shift in feeling, from daydreaming to very alert, is the feeling of very aware.

Thanks! Now, back to the basic question ...
Who is it that is aware?

Although feeling precedes thought, feeling doesn't seem to happen randomly without cause. Is this misunderstanding clear?

"Having a cause" and "having a subject to cause it" are different.
Which one suggest reality and which one doesn't?

[Starr]

Somehow managed to finish the planned work earlier than expected. :)
Here's my full reply.

Let's take a look at time; past and future.

Visualise a scene from your memory.
Would you call that past?

No. Past is just another assignment created by thought. Just like spacial location. Call it temporal location. It has been clearly seen that thought defined separation (this thing and that thing, over here or over there, and now yesterday or tomorrow), although useful in practice, is not actually reality. Instead these thought defined separations appear to fragment and thereby distort the true nature of reality in its totality. Nothing at all can happen in the past or the future. It never has and never will. Everything happens now. Thoughts about the past or future undoubtedly only ever happen now.

What about everything else? Isn't it about movement and change?

And is there a subject that changes, or is it that
movement and change simply ARE?

It seems like movement and change are one in the same. And yes, it does appear that everything experienced is best summed up in the word movement or the word change. They seem to imply the same thing in this case. The only constant in experience is change.

There can be no subject. None can ever be found in experience. If a subject is found thought has fragmented experience. Subject can not be reality. Movement and/or change just are. Always are.

Could the entire, undisturbed by thought, underlying experience, be called the subject?

Thanks! Now, back to the basic question ...
Who is it that is aware?

Clearly, at this point, no one is aware. Awareness happens just like everything else. It would be much simpler to leave it at that, but...

Experience (sensory input + thoughts + feelings) is always changing. Feelings, sights, sounds, and even thoughts are not always present. But in order for any experience to happen at all awareness must be. So its seen like this. Even when no sounds can be heard there is awareness of no sounds. Even when no thoughts exist (space between thoughts) there is awareness of no thoughts. Sounds aren't always heard. Thoughts aren't always thought. Awareness always is. Experience can not exist without awareness but experience can exist without thoughts or sounds or sights, etc.... (this seems to indicate that awareness is different from thinking, hearing, seeing, etc...


Hmm. If true reality does not involve fragmentation of any kind, if all separation is false, then how can experience be separated into sensory input + thoughts + feelings? It seems that even things like sights, sounds, feelings, thoughts, etc.. are a fragmentation of what is. Need some help here...

"Having a cause" and "having a subject to cause it" are different.
Which one suggest reality and which one doesn't?

Having a cause of course. Having a subject to cause anything is false. It seems that the only cause of any experience is experience itself. The only affect of experience is more experience. In the example previously refereed to, loud horn heard while daydreaming in traffic, the experience of being startled is seen to have been caused by the experience of loud horn heard. And as already covered, there can be no subject in experience. Reality is in constant motion. Each moment depends on the last and determines the next. The cause of any part of continuous motion is the motion itself.

Its been a really eye opening couple of days. Your commitment to respond even when busy with things far more important is so greatly appreciated. Good afternoon from the west coast U.S.

Starr

[Bananafish]

Thoughts about the past or future undoubtedly only ever happen now.

Nice! You wrote "Separation of experiences themselves seems to occur in time."
What is you understanding now?

There can be no subject. None can ever be found in experience. If a subject is found thought has fragmented experience. Subject can not be reality. Movement and/or change just are. Always are.

Beautiful ...

Could the entire, undisturbed by thought, underlying experience, be called the subject?

Call it anything. Reality, Truth, Tao, Buddha Nature, Godhead, peace of s***, what's the difference?

Hmm. If true reality does not involve fragmentation of any kind, if all separation is false, then how can experience be separated into sensory input + thoughts + feelings? It seems that even things like sights, sounds, feelings, thoughts, etc.. are a fragmentation of what is. Need some help here...

Close your eyes, choose a sound, and listen to it.

Where is the sound heard?


For separation to exist, there has to be "here" and "there."

Is the sound heard here? Is it heard there?
Where is "here?" Where is "there?"

Where is the reference point?


Please search for it.

there can be no subject in experience. Reality is in constant motion. Each moment depends on the last and determines the next. The cause of any part of continuous motion is the motion itself.

Truly beautiful ...
Do you feel that any kind of shift (even a minor one) has happened?


What is the "I" after all?

[Starr]

Nice! You wrote "Separation of experiences themselves seems to occur in time."
What is you understanding now?

Experience happens now and only now so the idea of separation via time is the arena of thought. The only place experiences can be labeled separate is in thought. Experience itself can have no division. Experience was, is, and always will be now. Invariably any notion of past or future occurs in the thoughts happening now. No past or future can actually be observed. All that can ever be observed is now. Time is seen to be a construct of thought not a part of reality. The implications of this are hard to fully appreciate. Experience is timeless. That is clearly seen. Life, however, feels inexorably tangled in time.

There can be no subject. None can ever be found in experience. If a subject is found thought has fragmented experience. Subject can not be reality. Movement and/or change just are. Always are.

Beautiful ...

:)

Call it anything. Reality, Truth, Tao, Buddha Nature, Godhead, peace of s***, what's the difference?

No difference. It is easily seen that they all point to the only thing they could. Reality is reality by any other name.

Close your eyes, choose a sound, and listen to it.

Where is the sound heard?


For separation to exist, there has to be "here" and "there."

Is the sound heard here? Is it heard there?
Where is "here?" Where is "there?"

Where is the reference point?


Please search for it.

Great question. The sound is just heard. It is clear that no location of hearing can be found (like in the ears or on the eardrum). However, it can still feel like the sound is coming from the left or right of... Of what? A reference point is required here. Even now the inclination can be to say that the sound is to the left of "me". Like the convergence of these sense organs can define a particular spot which is a suitable reference for comparison. Of course it is easily seen that all of the above exists only in thought. Any such idea of left of or right of, any definition of a particular place of reference, and any division of experience at all is not a part of observable reality. The truth of this is clear yet the feeling that thought is accurately assessing the situation is unshakeable. Perhaps the analogy of an optical illusion still being seen despite knowing it to be false applies here. The truth is known, however, the divided and labeled appearance presented by thought is still extremely pervasive and deceptive.

Truly beautiful ...
Do you feel that any kind of shift (even a minor one) has happened?

Absolutely a shift of great proportions has occurred, and yet, at the same time, nothing has actually changed. How could it? Perspective may have shifted but everything else remained the only way it could. The only way it ever was. The only way it ever will be. Once again it seems the whole optical illusion analogy is appropriate. The illusion has been seen to be false, however, the illusion remains.

It can still feel like it would be nice to be rid of "negative" aspects of life, however, it is clear that to be rid of any part of the experience "life" is to be rid of the whole. It has only ever been whole. Thought convinces otherwise and the battle ensues to remove part of something that was never a removable part in the first place. This invariably will lead only to more frustration never less. It appears that much of suffering is the result of taking reality as separate and then trying to keep some while avoiding the rest. Since this is not possible it can never lead to satisfactory results.

Knowing these things, having clearly observed these things, is unfortunately, not sufficient to withstand the allure of the illusion. The life created by thought was a solid box on all sides. Perhaps now there is a window. Still stuck inside but at least there is a view of the truth outside. The outside that was never outside but inside the whole time.

What is the "I" after all?

We seem to live in a thought constructed life. We live life by participating in the illusion of separateness. This of course involves the division of experience and the labeling of everything divided. This may very well be a game but it appears to be the only game in town. Either play or perish. This is how it seems. Now then, in order to participate in this life of division there must be a label setting yourself apart from everything else. This is simply impossible to avoid. In conversation I, me, myself, etc.. are all suitable labels to use to that end.

If we ended there then seeing through the illusion of self would not be necessary. What happens instead is that we tack on an identity to the term of separation. We build layer upon layer, story upon story, trait upon trait into what we think of as "I". A concept born out of mistakenly taking a game for reality. Never does it occur to us that the word "I" has no more implicit identity than the word rock. A label is a label. Its easy to see that a rock has no individual self. A rock is just a rock. Well I am just an I. Of course even rock and I are false but at least we can acknowledge their equivalence in this way. So what is the "I"? Its a useful label that has been mistakenly given an identity by the delusional label maker who has forgotten that its just another label.

Well that seems like plenty to chew on for one day. As always, working with you is an immense pleasure and greatly appreciated.

Starr

[Bananafish]

Experience is timeless. That is clearly seen. Life, however, feels inexorably tangled in time.

Yes. That's the totality of life.
How can you exclude thoughts from life?

The difference is that now you know an imagined serpent
to be just a rope. A ghost to be just a blanket. No threat, nothing to care about.


Isn't that enough?

The truth is known, however, the divided and labeled appearance presented by thought is still extremely pervasive and deceptive.

Right. That has been a long time habit.
Any habit takes time to be quitted.

Now you have understood the nature of this habit,
this understanding liberates.

Keep LOOking at the nature of this deception,
and it will fall by itself.

Knowing these things, having clearly observed these things, is unfortunately, not sufficient to withstand the allure of the illusion. The life created by thought was a solid box on all sides. Perhaps now there is a window. Still stuck inside but at least there is a view of the truth outside. The outside that was never outside but inside the whole time.

Great! I like the window analogy. :)

So what is the "I"? Its a useful label that has been mistakenly given an identity by the delusional label maker who has forgotten that its just another label.

Very nice!

Starr, do you feel like proceeding to the final set of questions?

If you want any other issues to be covered, please feel free to ask.

[Starr]

Yes. That's the totality of life.
How can you exclude thoughts from life?

The difference is that now you know an imagined serpent
to be just a rope. A ghost to be just a blanket. No threat, nothing to care about.


Isn't that enough?

Yes it is. It seems so obvious now that the illusion remains as long as thoughts remain. Of course a life without thoughts is neither possible nor desirable. Duh.

Right. That has been a long time habit.
Any habit takes time to be quitted.

Now you have understood the nature of this habit,
this understanding liberates.

Keep LOOking at the nature of this deception,
and it will fall by itself.

Well said. The illusion of separation is indeed continuing to dissolve. The appearance of things is changing. Perspective is shifting. This is ongoing. This is liberating.

Very nice!

Starr, do you feel like proceeding to the final set of questions?

If you want any other issues to be covered, please feel free to ask.

Many questions came up along the way but were held till the end assuming some of them would be answered through the work we were doing. None of them remain. All day today was spent trying to come up with questions and there are none. It seems like there should be, it would be nice to continue our dialog but right now I have nothing to ask. I would like to reserve the right to present questions should they arise but for now lets proceed to the final set of questions. Final? The idea of ending our dialogue is meet with some resistance. Your questions have done what 2 years of reading, praying reading, meditating, and more reading never could. Thank you.

Starr

[Bananafish]

Many questions came up along the way but were held till the end assuming some of them would be answered through the work we were doing. None of them remain. All day today was spent trying to come up with questions and there are none. It seems like there should be, it would be nice to continue our dialog but right now I have nothing to ask. I would like to reserve the right to present questions should they arise but for now lets proceed to the final set of questions. Final? The idea of ending our dialogue is meet with some resistance. Your questions have done what 2 years of reading, praying reading, meditating, and more reading never could. Thank you.

This is a lifelong journey. During our lifetime, we will keep LOOKing at
every aspect of life. be it painful or joyful.

Understanding dawns.

Each time we understand a bit, liberation takes place.


Understanding the nature of "I," the way of the thoughts,
is the very beginning of it, and is also the very basis of it.


Please keep LOOKing, and I will be supporting you for as long as you wish.




Above said, here are the "final" questions!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Starr]

Good evening from south Florida. Not taking the day off but will not be finished until tomorrow. Enjoy the night off :)

Starr

[Bananafish]

Good evening from Yokohama, japan. :)
Take your time, Starr. See you tomorrow!

Bananafish

[Starr]

Please keep LOOKing, and I will be supporting you for as long as you wish.

:)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The terms I, self, me, etc.. were infused with identity via imagination. Imagination, although very powerful and apparently very convincing in this case, is not real. The identity of "I" felt very real to be sure, however, when actually looked for nothing was seen. The entity of "self" can only be found it the form of a concept existing in thought. A concept that a unique and concrete "I" exists as the constant observer of the shifting landscape of life. This solid "me" is seen to be in charge of decisions, actions, and even outcomes. It takes credit or blame for circumstances in life. If "I" am a concrete backdrop upon which life occurs, a constantly present and unchanging thing, then it should be easy to locate and verify that "I" am/is. Instead, using direct observation, just the opposite is found. There is nothing constant/concrete/solid to be found in experience. No set in stone likes/dislikes, character traits, beliefs, etc... All that can be observed is the shifting current of life. Nothing in charge, nothing to take credit, nothing deciding, nothing at all. Everything happens just as it does, just as it always has and will, with or without the identity "I". "I" is an unneeded conceptual falsity. "I" points to nothing.

When I really look it seems obvious that there can be no "I". In the moment of looking there is nothing besides the looking. Ideas, beliefs, traits, habits, etc.. all come as images that tack onto the experience. They are thought not reality. In the exact moment of looking none of the components of self (ideas, beliefs, traits, etc..) can be seen/felt. There simply is what actually is. Nothing else. There is no time for anything else to be. Then thought. Then thought. Thought is where the self is constructed and where it resides. In thought, not reality. Reality has no time for the thoughts required to form the self. In the moment it is clear that no one is here. Then thought.

It appears like this... There is reality, it is whole, all is one, then thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

As discussed above, the illusion of self is the belief in the concept that there is a substantial unchanging being underlying all experience. Something that directs the course of "my" life. Something that is unaffected by the movement of life. Something that is constant and has continuity of awareness.

The belief in a separate self is universally embraced and accepted. Parents waste no time in helping children to develop this mental construct. From an early age parents begin to help their children construct a specific and unique self, something in line with what they imagine as themselves or often as what they have pictured as a better self than the one the have. Many virtues are said to be required if your to be a good, happy, and successful self. So, in order to please their providers, children begin to build up an identity. Aiming for a list of perceived traits like responsible, honest, well behaved, etc.. creating self according to what makes one a "good girl/boy" as directed usually from parents or teachers. There is never any doubt as to the existence of a self, however, there is much conflict surrounding the formation of an identity. There is the idea of what a self should be and there is what actually is. Never are the two the same and so conflict ensues. So the self starts as soon as comprehension allows and can be seen as battle between an image of what one is supposed to be and what one actually is. Somewhere in the middle your "self" is loosely defined. In the end most of us have a few selves we show to the world, the ones that conform to what we think will please others, those selves we know to be false. Then we have the "true" self. The one we believe to fact. The one we must hide and protect. The one that really is us even though we never feel satisfied or comfortable with this self. The one that is impossible to find when looked for yet this is the self that feels solid.

Growing up the traits that were most stressed were ones that almost worship the self. The idea that your destiny is totally up too you. Hard work and dedication would lead to happiness. Everyone gets what they deserve in this life. The success of another was viewed as proof positive that they were indeed great selves. Self was almighty. Self could do it all. If anything went wrong a weak or lazy self was surely to blame. Without a self to be proud of, to take credit and accept accolades, then what could there possibly be? There would be no point to such an existence. Your self not only defined your identity but was also completely responsible for success or failure in life. So build it right or else... Such were the conditions in which my "self" took shape. Under these circumstances the idea that a self exists and is unique to each of us was never questioned at all. So I became "myself".

All of the above may be true but it seems like blah, blah, blah. It can be seen much simpler. The illusion of self starts in thought. The illusion of self is built and sustained by thoughts. The illusion of self is worshiped and protected by thoughts. As was already observed it appears... There is reality, there is wholeness, all is one, timeless, then thought. The illusion of self is the one of the results of mistaking thoughts for reality.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels liberating. Before this dialogue the idea that there was no self was believed intellectually, however, there had been no experience to back this up. Experience is required for an idea to actually have a tangible impact, at least in this case. Saying there is no self is vastly different from experiencing that there is no self. One can fade quickly into intellectual posturing while the other is a permanent shift that can not just be forgotten or set aside to ponder other possibilities. It moves from the realm of possible to actual through experience. A huge difference from just a few weeks ago is how the big questions are approached. Books, lectures, ideas of others, essentially thought was the only tool of discovery. Now first hand looking as been seen to be much a more valuable tool. This is radically different and no longer requires seeking out the words of others. Essentially this shift has led to the collapse, in large part, to the seeking. What a relief. The seeking itself is a full time job full of uncertainty and disappointment. It is relieving to see that the answers one seeks can only be found in experience. Experience that requires no book, class, or retreat. Experience that can not in fact come from books, classes, or retreats. Experience that is/was always available right now through observation. And some piercing questions from someone who already sees goes a long way as well. Thank you again :)

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was a strong desire to look long before our dialogue started. The problem was, although it seems so obvious now, I had no idea how to move from books and ideas to actual looking.

3 months ago I had YouTube on while doing house work and had randomly selected a talk on some spirituality. At one point the question was asked "where are you located". Literally where do you think you are? "In the brain is where consciousness resides", I thought. But then I remembered that different parts of the brain are responsible for processing different senses. So smell is processed in one part and seeing in another. They are disconnected. So where then was the consciousness where they all met and were one? Where was "I"? This gave me quite a shock and somehow I knew that something monumental was going on, that this line of inquiry was of up most importance. Looking started here. Then many books, videos, etc.. seemed to have only confused the issue, however, I could not let go of the feeling that this must be figured out. Then I found this forum and you, put down the books, and actually made progress. Thank you :)

That major realizations that this dialogue produced were..

1) No self was experienced
2) That separation is an illusion of thought. This was huge. I had read, over and over, that all is one and blah blah blah. It sounded nice but lacking any experience to that effect the words were hollow. Clearly they seemed to indicate some esoteric spiritual idea, some metaphor or something. Its obvious, that in the real world, 2 physical objects are separate or so I thought. Seeing through this, experiencing the the truth of thought created division was much more than was ever expected when we started.
3) That nothing can known about experience except the experience itself. All the various things that were thought to be so obviously known through experience (like here and there, big or small, cause and effect, even yesterday or last week) were nothing more than thoughts about the experience. Reality is the experience. Everything else is thought about it.
4) That the search for truth is an inside job. Observation, as you like to say LOOKing, is the only effective way to experience the truth.
5) That things happen as they do because they do. The cause of the motion of life and the effect of the motion of life is the motion itself. No one directing anything. No choice or free will to be found.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control?

All illusions created by thought after the event has occurred. Experience happens then thought assigns cause, effect, intention, etc.. Thoughts says I choose to do something only after that something has occurred. In the moment of experience whatever happens happens. There is no time for choice. There is no time for thought. Movement continues and thought assigns reasons. Movement requires no reason.

What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Things happen because they happen. Every moment is dependent on the prior one and determines the next one. The cause of this movement is the movement itself. There can be no start or stop point found in this movement so it needs no real cause. It just is. I can do nothing to alter or direct this movement so I can not be responsible for anything. I can think myself responsible for things but that is just fantasy about that which needs no outside responsibility. It much like having the thought "I command the sun to rise" and then claiming myself responsible for the fact that the sun rose this morning. Thought can claim it directs things, however, direction is seen to be unnecessary and delusional.

6) Anything to add?

So when I really ask "who am I" there is very little to be found. Blurry images start to surface but hold no substance at all. Images of physical body, great triumphs and great defeats, traits, etc.. but they are blurry and paper thin at best. In the moment none of these images can be felt. In the moment there is just experience. There is no one experiencing.

It is clear that thought divides. Thought separates. But if this did not happen, this illusion of division, then the stage that life moves on would not exist. If there were no separation then I would never have been able to discover that I never was. It order for the illusion of separation to be discovered it must first exist. The illusion, the truth, and the movement of life seem to all be essential somehow. We call it illusion yet it seems that the existence of the illusion is responsible for the existence of physical life and without physical life what would exist to realize it doesn't exist? In other words, without the illusion what could there be?

This continues to be so rewarding in so many ways. Thank you as always.

Starr

[Starr]

It is difficult to put into words what is felt so that last paragraph may be far from clear.

Thought divides but in its division thought creates. Without the separate creations of this division what would exist to realize that it is was not in fact separate?

[Bananafish]

Thanks Starr for your beautiful response. It made tears come to my eyes ...

It is clear that thought divides. Thought separates. But if this did not happen, this illusion of division, then the stage that life moves on would not exist. If there were no separation then I would never have been able to discover that I never was. It order for the illusion of separation to be discovered it must first exist. The illusion, the truth, and the movement of life seem to all be essential somehow. We call it illusion yet it seems that the existence of the illusion is responsible for the existence of physical life and without physical life what would exist to realize it doesn't exist? In other words, without the illusion what could there be?

I resonate with you on what you are referring to.

To know and understand Reality, there seems be a very subtle witnessing that witnesses it
and understands it. Now it is seen clearly that it's not the thought "I".
Then, is that a kind of subject? What is it?


This will be a new phase of inquiry, and
I'm sure there are chances to inquire into it after this current one is done. :)

[Bananafish]

Hi Starr. :)

I had my fellow guides read this thread, and
they are all happy with it, without any further questions for
clarification.

Congrats on you crashing the Gateless Gate!
Welcome Home, Starr!


I will send a PM to you, so please take a look
at it.

It was such a pleasure to work with you.

Warmest regards,


Bananafish