Relax - nothing is under control

[kvotski]

Hi Monica,

n. But I guess you can look at almost everything I do as habits

Let's look at that guess of yours closely.

Have two pens in front of you then pick one up?

Tell me all that went into this decision. What and where did Monica decide?

Repeat the same with fruits like an apple or an orange.

a metaphor for how I experience the mind when meditating regularly. Your description of what goes on in meditation made me see that I only think I can direct “my” awareness

In direct experience, what is awareness?

And what is "my" awareness?

What and why is the keyboard you using " yours"?

To expand this a bit more. Write down all of " your" things and activities.

Then write down the same list without the parsonal adjective.

How does it feel?

What thoughts come up?

[Nagan]

Hi Sunil!

Have two pens in front of you then pick one up?
Tell me all that went into this decision. What and where did Monica decide?

I looked at the desk and saw several pens, thought a bit about which two to choose, almost picked two identical ones, but then took another so the pens would look different. Just sat for a maybe a minute and looked at the pens, noticed thoughts about which one to pick and when. Thought: “pick the whiteboard pen”. Found the hand reaching for the other. I did not decide to pick that pen and was a bit surprised when seeing the pen in my hand. There was no Monica involved in this decision. There were thoughts and actions.

Repeat the same with fruits like an apple or an orange.

When I made dinner I looked at the fruit bowl. There were 5 apples and 3 oranges. Thought ”I must do the LU-exercise, but not now. I’ll do it after dinner.” Then thought: ”I don’t like green apples very much and the oranges must be eaten before they get old”. Found myself picking the orange, put it on the counter, thought ”I’ll eat it after dinner”. The orange is still on the counter.

I’m not even sure I did the exercise, but I can’t find any Monica making a decision about picking the orange. And what I thought to be a decision – to eat the orange after dinner – was only a thought. It didn’t happen. In fact the whole day I’ve been finding myself thinking about doing things but almost none of these things have happen. Other things got in the way. A telephone call from a friend interrupted my yoga plans, the conversation lasted so long that it got quite dark and the long walk with my dog I had planned to take became a much shorter one. And my dog didn’t want to go in the direction I wanted so I let her choose the way. Realized that if all this would (not) have happen, say a year ago, I would have felt frustrated about not getting things done the way I planned. But today I felt amused and could see conditions arising, leading to other conditions and so on. Maybe I just fool myself when I think I can choose?

In direct experience, what is awareness?

Seeing, feeling, touching, smelling, hearing, thinking.

And what is "my" awareness?

The thought that this body writing this right now experience body sensations.

What and why is the keyboard you using " yours"?

The keyboard isn’t mine. It’s a keyboard.

To expand this a bit more. Write down all of " your" things and activities. Then write down the same list without the parsonal adjective. How does it feel? What thoughts come up?

I honestly can’t say that anything is MINE. It’s just labels. Legally there are several things that are mine, but that is just labels – like my apartment in the city, my animals, my car. In reality I can’t own anything. There are thoughts about/feelings of attachments to things, persons, places, but I can’t own them. How could I? My grandmother died this summer and a couple of months ago my dad passed away. When clearing out their apartments it was very obvious that you can’t own anything. It’s stuff. Most of the things that was valuable to dad has no meaning to me and are now taken to the dump. Some things in my grandma’s apartment are viewed as valuable things in society in general and generated some money for my mum. But the money is figures on a computer screen. Neither my dad nor my grandma could take anything with them when they died. I can call things mine, but it’s only labels/thoughts.

[kvotski]

That's just beautiful, Monica.

My dad died ten years ago and i went through exactly the same emotions. He had thousands of pictures and nick nacks which have no home. It will cost me more to move that stuff here than just dumping it. And i remember how attached he was to some of these.

Let's look at the body.

Most of us hide in " i am the body".

I want you to take serious and honest look. Is Monica a body?

Body and mind go together but look if Monica is a mind.

[Nagan]

Hi Sunil!
I want to thank you for always replying so quick!

Is Monica a body?

No, Monica is not a body. Sometimes “my” body or often parts of it “disappear” when I meditate. The first times it happened I got frightened, but nowadays I enjoy it. By disappear I mean that there are no body sensations in for example what I usually can sense and label as my stomach. It feels like a void. Very pleasant. And sometimes when I’m very caught up in thoughts I can almost forget my body. Then it feels like all activity is taking place in the head.

Body and mind go together but look if Monica is a mind.

No, I can’t say Monica is mind either. Monica is a story I keep telling. The last year I’ve tested to tell – and live – quite different stories compared to before, and it’s very liberating to see that I don’t have to believe in the old stories about myself! They were about a very fixed, controlling and hardworking Monica who had very fixed ideas about who she was and how she should live, work, eat, and socialize and so on. I can also see that there are thousands of different stories to tell about my past, all depending on what perspective you take. The story of the daughter Monica, the sister Monica, the colleague Monica, the Buddhist Monica, the depressed Monica, the happy Monica, the lazy Monica, the hardworking Monica, the disciplined Monica and so on and so on…

Right now the story is about the tired Monica who will soon go to bed. God night!

[kvotski]

Hi Monica,

Hope you had a good night's rest.

You said,


No,

Monica is not a body. Sometimes “my” body or often parts of it “disappear” when I meditate. The first times it happened I got frightened, but nowadays I enjoy it. By disappear I mean that there are no body sensations in for example what I usually can sense and label as my stomach. It feels like a void. Very pleasant. And sometimes when I’m very caught up in thoughts I can almost forget my body. Then it feels like all activity is taking place in the head.

Why quotes around my?

Who meditates?

Who got frightened?

What disappeared?

Who gets caught up?

Who forgets whose body?

When does all activity not take place in the head?

I am being a knit picker on purpose not purposefully difficult. These answers will reveal what you think is the body and mind and Monica.

[kvotski]

And the second paragraph,

No, I can’t say Monica is mind either. Monica is a story I keep telling. The last year I’ve tested to tell – and live – quite different stories compared to before, and it’s very liberating to see that I don’t have to believe in the old stories about myself! They were about a very fixed, controlling and hardworking Monica who had very fixed ideas about who she was and how she should live, work, eat, and socialize and so on. I can also see that there are thousands of different stories to tell about my past, all depending on what perspective you take. The story of the daughter Monica, the sister Monica, the colleague Monica, the Buddhist Monica, the depressed Monica, the happy Monica, the lazy Monica, the hardworking Monica, the disciplined Monica and so on and so on…

Are these stories true?

Is the Monica story happening now, true?

Please answer based on direct experience only.

[Nagan]

Food for thoughts, Sunil!
Unexpected conditions got in the way of reflecting upon your interesting questions. I'll get back tomorrow!
All the best!

[Nagan]

Hi Sunil!

Why quotes around my?

Because I tend to think about experienced body sensations as happening in “my” body, even though I know it’s not mine. I mean, I can’t feel pain in someone else’s back. That’s why I write “my”.

Who meditates?

I guess no one. Meditation is happening, due to certain conditions.

Who got frightened?

Same here, there were expectations/thoughts about experiences of certain body sensations, but instead of feeling a stomach, there was a void. And this was interpreted as fear.

What disappeared?

Awareness of body senations.

Who gets caught up?

No one, thoughts come and go, but sometimes the thoughts turn into stories.

Who forgets whose body?

I guess no one, but there is no awareness of body sensations, only thoughts composing stories. Like watching a movie and forgetting that you are watching it. You are IN it.

When does all activity not take place in the head?

When there is awareness of body sensations.

Are these stories true?

Some of the stories about the past I think of as memories, but I can’t re-live them in direct experience so I guess I have to say no…? On the one hand I’m quite sure that certain things have happened, but these things can be thought of, and told about, in many different ways, depending on perspective.

Is the Monica story happening now, true?

In direct experience there is only a now, and a now and a now. As soon as I begin to tell a story there are interpreting thoughts. ???

But right now it feels I can’t know or do anything! There is a lot of tension in the body, dizziness and headache… A sense of falling. Not very pleasant…

[kvotski]

Hi Monica,

Very good look.

But right now it feels I can’t know or do anything! There is a lot of tension in the body, dizziness and headache… A sense of falling. Not very pleasant…

As long as you are in good health, there are releases happening. They will soon end.

Because I tend to think about experienced body sensations as happening in “my” body, even though I know it’s not mine. I mean, I can’t feel pain in someone else’s back. That’s why I write “my”.

So that is a thought. Thoughts about objects which can be directly experienced are trustworthy but whe they are about made up stories like " me, my or i", they are unreliable.

Think of batman. He is so real on TV but can he ever be found?

Can "I, me or mine" be found?

If you can't feel the pain in "your" back how can you feel it in another's?

Look at your hands for a while, move the fingers, up and down.

Ask, what makes this "my" hamd?

Same here, there were expectations/thoughts about experiences of certain body sensations, but instead of feeling a stomach, there was a void. And this was interpreted as fear.

So is fear a label to a sensation, only direct experience?

Is this also true of other sensations?

Look and relate what you find.

I guess no one, but there is no awareness of body sensations, only thoughts composing stories. Like watching a movie and forgetting that you are watching it. You are..

Take a look right now. If you ignore the stories, thoughts about the stories, what remains?

Is it different any time, in meditation or just living?

Some of the stories about the past I think of as memories, but I can’t re-live them in direct experience so I guess I have to say no…? On the one hand I’m quite sure that certain things have happened, but these things can be thought of, and told about, in many different ways, depending on perspective.

Can you remember exactly what you were doing at 5 pm yesterday? How true is that recollection?
How accurate is any memory?
How different is the memory compared to a good book you haave read?

The you in these memories, is it a different you?

Is that you still here?

What is it?

[Nagan]

Hi Sunil!
I'll not have access to internet until Sunday. I'll get beack to you on Monday at the latest! Have a nice weekend!

[Nagan]

Hi Sunil!

Noticing a need to explain that I’ve felt a resistance to look at your questions. Realizing that this is a thought… So what has happened during these days? I’ve been doing other things… And there are thoughts/stories about why I haven’t sat down and taken a close look at your questions. But there is no good answer….? Confusion! Which is also a label…!

So that is a thought. Thoughts about objects which can be directly experienced are trustworthy but when they are about made up stories like " me, my or i", they are unreliable.

Think of batman. He is so real on TV but can he ever be found?

Can "I, me or mine" be found?

No, I can’t find or have a direct experience of I, me or mine. There are thoughts about I, me or mine, but I can’t touch, smell, hear, or see I, me or mine.

If you can't feel the pain in "your" back how can you feel it in another's?

I CAN feel pain in what I THINK OF as “my” back, BECAUSE I can feel the pain. I can’t feel pain in another body – I can imagine/empathize with pain in someone else’s back, but I can’t have a direct experience of it.

Look at your hands for a while, move the fingers, up and down. Ask, what makes this "my" hand?

There is experience of movements, a recognition of how the hands look and feel. There is a thought that I’m used to think of these hands as mine, but since I can’t have any direct experience of I, me or mine, there is nothing that makes the hands mine. Except thoughts that they are.

So is fear a label to a sensation, only direct experience? Is this also true of other sensations?

Look and relate what you find.

I’m not sure I follow you… Yes fear is a label to a sensation. And yes other sensations are also interpreted/thought of as fear, love, happiness, joy and so on. I realize that what I wrote to you about that episode with the void is a memory and therefore a story. And I can’t honestly remember what the exact sensation was that was interpreted/thought of as fear.

Take a look right now. If you ignore the stories, thoughts about the stories, what remains?

What’s happening now is what remains. Fingers moving on the keyboard, sitting/contact with what is most often thought of as a chair, breathing, seeing, smelling, tension, movement, sounds.

Is it different any time, in meditation or just living?

I guess not… Maybe? Having this thought of that there is something about awareness... A thought about that the awareness is different when meditating...

Can you remember exactly what you were doing at 5 pm yesterday?

No.

How true is that recollection? How accurate is any memory?

Even if I thought I could remeber exactly I can’t have a direct experience of it, so it cannot be true in the sense that I can test it. It goes for every memory.

How different is the memory compared to a good book you have read?

The thoughts about it feels different than when reading a book. The perspective, the pictures is seen through what I usually think of as my eyes. And there can be body sensations connected with the thoughts of something that has happen to this body sitting here now. But is that also just a thought?

The you in these memories, is it a different you?

Different from what? From the experiences occuring now? Yes. The experiences are happening now and can only be felt now. The memories are stories that can’t be directly experienced.

Is that you still here?

No. That me wasn't there then either.

What is it?

Thoughts?

[kvotski]

Hi Monica,

Glad you are back. Is there something specific that precipitated a resistance. If it is something in my style, let me know.

It is clear that you see i, me or self as a thought construct. But this illusion often hides in " i am the body".

I CAN feel pain in what I THINK OF as “my” back, BECAUSE I can feel the pain. I can’t feel pain in another body – I can imagine/empathize with pain in someone else’s back, but I can’t have a direct experience of it.

Is there a "you" feeling the pain?

How does the sensation of feeling pain different from a heart beating or even experiencing rain falling?

Some sensations like pain are louder as the distance between the hurt and the sensing brain is much shorter than a lightning. Pain experienced by another body is also very far and not all connected by nerve cells to the brain which is reporting " your" pain. Sometimes when you deeply care about another, even this body can respond.

Have you ever noticed that? Perhaps even in a touching movie.

Where does sensation end and a thought of "you" being the sensor begin?

Can you experience the demarkation line?

There is experience of movements, a recognition of how the hands look and feel. There is a thought that I’m used to think of these hands as mine, but since I can’t have any direct experience of I, me or mine, there is nothing that makes the hands mine. Except thoughts that they are.

Not that you Can't have but there is no you at all.

Look if there is a you experiencing the hands?

]I’m not sure I follow you… Yes fear is a label to a sensation. And yes other sensations are also interpreted/thought of as fear, love, happiness, joy and so on. I realize that what I wrote to you about that episode with the void is a memory and therefore a story. And I can’t honestly remember what the exact sensation was that was interpreted/thought of as fear.

You get the point. All sensations including fear come and go, in the body and a thought claiming it to be your fear.

Relate if its true for whatever emotions you are feeling now.

Other than the intensity and a thought that fear is unpleasant as opposed to joy, is there an inherent difference?

Even if I thought I could remeber exactly I can’t have a direct experience of it, so it cannot be true in the sense that I can test it. It goes for every memory.


How different is the memory compared to a good book you have read?


The thoughts about it feels different than when reading a book. The perspective, the pictures is seen through what I usually think of as my eyes. And there can be body sensations connected with the thoughts of something that has happen to this body sitting here now. But is that also just a thought?


The you in these memories, is it a different you?


Different from what? From the experiences occuring now? Yes. The experiences are happening now and can only be felt now. The memories are stories that can’t be directly experienced.

Is that you still here?


No. That me wasn't there then either.


What is it?


Thoughts?

Aren't they all thoughts except for the direct experience of sensations including the assumed owner or doer?

Open and close your eyes several times and notice the sensation when light comes flooding in.

Other than the intensity, is there a qualitative difference between the objects with eyes open and the images with eyes closed?

[Nagan]

Hi Sunil!

“Is there something specific that precipitated a resistance. If it is something in my style, let me know.”

No, it’s not your style. I’ve been feeling a bit disoriented the last couple of days, trying to see what are thoughts and direct experience and thoughts about what I usually think of as “me”. Feeling a bit nihilistic from time to time. I realize that nothing has changed, but it is if as I experience the world a bit different. Sometimes it’s pleasant, sometimes a bit scary. I keep coming back at the question of choice. I’ve had an idea that I CAN control things and choose, but I’m not so certain anymore… It feels like when I studied at the University and came across theories that turned my world up-side-down, and therefore woke both interest and resistance. Just before I really understood the theory there was this sense of living in an optical delusion – the old way of seeing and the new, and they totally contradicted each other and I felt I had to choose. Looking back now I can’t even remember how it felt NOT understanding that theory...

“Is there a "you" feeling the pain?
How does the sensation of feeling pain different from a heart beating or even experiencing rain falling?
Some sensations like pain are louder as the distance between the hurt and the sensing brain is much shorter than a lightning. Pain experienced by another body is also very far and not all connected by nerve cells to the brain which is reporting " your" pain. Sometimes when you deeply care about another, even this body can respond.
Have you ever noticed that? Perhaps even in a touching movie.”

No, can’t find any me feeling the pain.

The sensation of feeling pain differ from a heart beating or experiencing rain falling in the way you describe it. Pain is louder and tend to drown out other sensations. And a heart beating and experience of rain falling is sensed in different parts of the body than for example the pain in the back.

You say that ”Pain experienced by another body is also very far and not all connected by nerve cells to the brain which is reporting " your" pain” and the thought comes: isn’t that just a thought? How can I experience that directly? This is how my days been like – everything I hear, read, ”know” is – when boiling it down – THOUGHTS. And unreliable if I can’t experience them directly?

But, to answer your question: Yes, I often experience other peoples’ pain. Or joy, for that matter. But how do I know it’s not only a thought?

”Where does sensation end and a thought of "you" being the sensor begin? Can you experience the demarkation line?”

No, can’t experience any demarcation line.

”Not that you Can't have but there is no you at all.
Look if there is a you experiencing the hands?”

No, there isn’t any me experiencing. Only experience. And thoughts…

”All sensations including fear come and go, in the body and a thought claiming it to be your fear.
Relate if it’s true for whatever emotions you are feeling now.
Other than the intensity and a thought that fear is unpleasant as opposed to joy, is there an inherent difference?”

No, there are body sensations. And interpretations/thoughts.

“Open and close your eyes several times and notice the sensation when light comes flooding in. Other than the intensity, is there a qualitative difference between the objects with eyes open and the images with eyes closed?”

Yes there is a qualitative difference. With the eyes open there are more details. With the eyes closed the object isn’t as clear and the mind starts to try to fill in the blanks but often imagined things turns up!

[kvotski]

Hi Monica,

Looking back now I can’t even remember how it felt NOT understanding that theory...

Me too. I often try to recall when I knew for sure 2 plus 2 equals four. And now when exactly I knew there was no me. Only a vague memory of working with a guide here and struggling with Eckhardt Tolle's power of now and not being able to define the now. Until it hit me, that there was no now, it too was a thought.

You say that ”Pain experienced by another body is also very far and not all connected by nerve cells to the brain which is reporting " your" pain” and the thought comes: isn’t that just a thought? How can I experience that directly? This is how my days been like – everything I hear, read, ”know” is – when boiling it down – THOUGHTS. And unreliable if I can’t experience them directly?

Five senses are therefore treated as direct experience differently than thought. Thought is also a sensation but the content of thought is not. Thinking about an orange is not tasting an orange. So pain is a touch sensation when it is loud enough for this body to experience. When it is far enough in another body it is a thought until as you later said,

But, to answer your question: Yes, I often experience other peoples’ pain. Or joy, for that matter. But how do I know it’s not only a thought? .

However in certain resonance, the body actually feels it. Like an ache in the heart or an euphoric surge when joyous.

Can you see the difference?

Yes there is a qualitative difference. With the eyes open there are more details. With the eyes closed the object isn’t as clear and the mind starts to try to fill in the blanks but often imagined things turns up!

I was calling the details quantitative as being more precise and louder. Qualitative meaning they feel the same like in a dream when there is less distraction, do you not believe that you are really there?

Can we summarise where you are?

can you find a self, I, me, or mine?
Do you make the decisions, control thinks or do thinks directly?
Are there any doubts?

[Nagan]

“I was calling the details quantitative as being more precise and louder. Qualitative meaning they feel the same like in a dream when there is less distraction, do you not believe that you are really there?”

I’m not sure I follow you…? Do you mean qualitative or quantitative? Could you be a bit more specific regarding the question? Are you asking if I believe that there is a me or not when having the eyes closed? Or dreameing?

“Can we summarise where you are? can you find a self, I, me, or mine?”

No, can't find any fixed, essential or separate I, me or mine.

“Do you make the decisions, control thinks or do thinks directly? Are there any doubts?”

This is what’s confusing me. Looking back – that is, thinking about things I think has happened – I can see that there sometimes have been thoughts about deciding things, and sometimes actions have followed in line with these thoughts. Like for instance the decision to move to the countryside. There were thoughts about this, verbalized to friends, then after some time I was asked if I wanted to, more thoughts from my side and now I’m here. But I can’t pin point any specific time when the decision was made – or any decider either for that matter. Many various conditions led to me living here now.

Yes, there is something nagging... How to think of authenticity? The feeling in the stomach when something feels absolutely right – or wrong? Is it due to conditioning? Habits? How to think about the longing to break habits and wanting to see through the illusion of the self? Why does some thoughts feel more important and real than other thoughts?