Learning about being guided and guide others

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

This "I" - the one who might do or have done the wrong thing - the one that bad things might happen to - is not real at that moment. It is not found in experience anywhere while the feeling of anxiety is there. Am I right about that?/quote]I believe so. So what you are saying is the feeling of anxiety is real when the I is not because it can't be found in the experience. Am I understanding right?

But, is there an actual real "I" anywhere in the experience of anxiety?

Ummm

Can a "feeler" of the anxiety be found?

not sure id I understand the question : "feeler"?(sorry back ground is french, I am a blonde and I am presently on a burn out with a brain completely fried -all this makes me thick to understand....)

Or, are there just body sensations + a whole lot of thoughts talking about "I"

I do believe this is just body sensations and a whole lot of thoughts talking about "I"....
;-))
Nat

[blackh]

Nat,

I do believe this is just body sensations and a whole lot of thoughts talking about "I"....

Great!

Earlier you said

I identify with emotions throughout the day about myself and others.

Is there still some way in which you feel that emotions are "you"?

For exemple I identify with a painful body from time to time.
I identify with pleasure in my body when eating something that I liked

What role does the self play in pleasure and pain?
Can you find an "I" who is the experiencer of them?
Are they "about you" in some way?
Is there anything to them other than body sensations and thoughts?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

What role does the self play in pleasure and pain?

The self plays no role whatsoever. The pain and pleasure are emotions and thoughts only.

Can you find an "I" who is the experiencer of them?

Nope and i looked hard. ;-)

Are they "about you" in some way?

I can't see or fathom they are about "me". The are body sensations and thoughts

Is there anything to them other than body sensations and thoughts?

No it was clear to me this afternoon and now that there is only a body, body sensations and thoughts.
;-)))
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

Nope and i looked hard. ;-)
I can't see or fathom they are about "me". The are body sensations and thoughts

Excellent work! Yes, this work does require some effort.

At the beginning, you wrote this:

I believe I identify with all my body, mind, thought experiences. I identify myself through my job. through being a mother. I define myself through everything that touches me in anyway and creating thoughts and emotions.

I do believe that we all identify to and through our bodies, sensations, emotions and thoughts. Emotions creates reaction creates actions. Thoughts creates actions.

..... My present understanding is that I am "Presence" having experiences though an "I" or self which is a body.

I think we've been over each of these. What's left? Is every aspect of life just happening, or does it feel like you are involved in it somewhere?

We did talk about how thoughts influence actions but actions can occur when there are no thoughts. We didn't look at the causes of actions.

Right now, where in your life does it most feel like a self is in charge?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

We did talk about how thoughts influence actions but actions can occur when there are no thoughts. We didn't look at the causes of actions.

I am still processing the realisation from yesterday.... However now to me the cause of actions are thoughts and body sensations. For example, I have a body sensation: I feel hungry. I then proceed to eat because of the body sensation. Same for thoughts: if i think i have to go somewhere i will create the action of going somewhere.

Right now, where in your life does it most feel like a self is in charge?

Since yesterday Steve I have not felt in charge whatsoever. I keep observing thoughts and body sensations one after the other. ;-)))
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

However now to me the cause of actions are thoughts and body sensations. For example, I have a body sensation: I feel hungry. I then proceed to eat because of the body sensation. Same for thoughts: if i think i have to go somewhere i will create the action of going somewhere.

Nice observations! Body actions happen for different reasons but we're not so concerned with the details of that. We're more concerned with whether you are doing it or not.

Please do this exercise, which is looking at decisions made without thought:

Take two similar objects, preferably not breakable. Put them on a table. Now reach for one and grab it without thinking in advance which of the two objects to grab. At some point, a choice is made between the two objects. Now look very closely and find the exact decision point. How is the decision made?

You may have to repeat this many times.


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

Now look very closely and find the exact decision point. How is the decision made?

I did this a few times. To me when doing this exercise, the decision is made by thought at the last minute or the object caught the vision in some way and then object being grabbed. I tried many times but nothing else comes up. The decision seem to be made as soon as a thought come up. Am I missing something?
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

Am I missing something?

When you're eating or when you're driving, there are lots of decisions being made without thought. This exercise is supposed to allow you to create a situation at will where you're making a decision without thinking so you get a chance to examine it closely. It's meant to work because your hand is moving faster than your mind. Now, exercises don't necessarily work for everyone.

So, see if it helps if you do it quickly. Aim for the space between the two objects and move your hand with the intention of grabbing any one of them. If this still doesn't work, just say, and we'll move on to something else.


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,
I drove for 6 hrs today so had plenty of time to practice.
What I notice first very hard to stop the thinking about it. It was almost like my mind wanted to convinced me that there is always thoughts.
However I was able to do it without thinking. What I saw was there was no thought but a movement from the body. I did not notice anything insisting the movement or the choice. Ma hand was just moving by itself. Maybe I am doing wrong but that is what I noticed,
Nat


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[blackh]

Nat,

Don't worry about the exercise of grabbing things. It's not right for you at this time.

Ma hand was just moving by itself. Maybe I am doing wrong but that is what I noticed,

Nice work. You're definitely not doing it wrong.

So you can see that the body is perfectly capable of moving in complex ways without any thoughts. But when you focus on it, there are thoughts. So it's a bit difficult to notice, because...

It was almost like my mind wanted to convinced me that there is always thoughts.

Indeed! The mind claims all sorts of things. But, as you have seen here, often there is no substance to the claims.

So here's a related exercise:

Put an object on the table in front of you, then reach for it slowly and pick it up.

First, pay close attention to the body sensations: proprioception (the feeling that your arm is moving), then touch + temperature, then weight.

Now do it again, and look really closely for a feeling that "I am doing this".

Can you find a feeling like that? You might have to repeat many times and watch closely.


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,
I did it a few times.
I felt all the body sensations: approaching the object with no thoughts, grabbing the object in the same time noticing the weight, the form, the temperature, noticing everything about the movement and the object... the contact with my hand. I did not however felt once an I accomplishing this. It was all about the movement and the action creating the whole experience....
Nat


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[blackh]

Hi Nat,

I did not however felt once an I accomplishing this.

That's good! Did it feel like it was just happening?

Here's another exercise:

Go into the kitchen, and make yourself a drink or some food. Watch the whole process. Can you find a "you" that's doing it, or is it just happening?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,
Sorry was on the road yesterday.

Can you find a "you" that's doing it, or is it just happening?

I have tried this exercise the whole week end: no I can't find an "I" that is doing it. It is definitely just happening. It is between a thought generated movement or a movement that just happens.
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

That's wonderful! So what remains? Is there a self experienced in some way?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,
No there was no Self experimented in any way....
Nat