I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

[Kamil]

Hey Kay,

Lovely, Kamil! Just don’t have expectations on how things should be. When you saw that Santa Claus was not real….did life change? Maybe some expectations subsided because you knew there was no Santa Claus who left presents under the tree. However, life went on. Christmas comes and goes, Santa is still seen at Christmas time and gifts are still exchanged! Did thoughts about Christmas, Santa Claus etc disappear? No, they still appear. Is there a choice to whether or not they appear? No. Life continues on but is happening to no one.

Yes, it is all expectations. I SAW it today. I've read your email a few times and then suddenly it came. That part regarding expectations. Beautiful easiness appeared. It is still here. I SEE now that significant part of the 'self' are expectations. At least in my case. Thoughts saying 'what' and 'how' it should be. It might derive from the belief that thought can shape reality. Which, of course, is another thought.

That part about Santa. I've read it previously. It's quite easy to understand intellectually. However, today, I SAW it. This is the difference between understanding sth and SEEING it. Understanding is just a thought.

Nevertheless, I've got a question. You wrote to me to not to have expectations. It implies that there is a choice. That 'I' can decide to hold off them. And it looked like that. Expectation arose, LOOKING followed, SEEING expectation as thought, expectation evaporated immediately. On after another. There was no entity doing it, it was just happening. But it suggests a process. Something happens, because sth else happened. A change.

To what exactly are “thoughts intrusive and countless”?
How is it known that “thoughts are intrusive and countless”?

Above questions point to the same 'spot'. I LOOK, and LOOK, and LOOK and cannot find anything. The answer has to be: a thought.

Do you expect a rainbow to disappear, just because you know it's an illusion?
Did Santa Claus disappear just because you found out he wasn’t real?
Why then, would you expect the illusion of 'you', as a separate entity, to disappear?
This experience, however it shows up, is what is showing up….life lifing!

Thanks.

There is an expectation here that thought will change its tune! Thought doesn't stop telling you that it's your car, your job, your body, your craving, your preference, your pain, your happiness, your thoughts, your suffering, your this and your that. Why would thought stop saying something just because it's seen that you are not a separate self? It's never been any other way.

Once more.

What about when you roll over in bed when asleep? Did a thought appear to tell the body to roll over? If your theory fits, then you must be aware of that thought whilst you are asleep so that you can action the body to roll over. Are you aware of those thoughts and are you aware of the body rolling over? Look at this very carefully.

I need to look at this one closer.

You tell me, Kamil. What are thought stories made up of? Thought, right? Do those thought stories point to AE or do they point to further thought stories?

Thought stories are mostly about something else, somewhere else. They do not point to AE. Thoughts 'create' world of their own.

When you LOOK can you find anyone or anything that is LOOKING or that is experiencing ‘relaxation and lightness’ or to whom thoughts are appearing to?

I've never managed to find anyone. When 'I' LOOK at 'I' there is always sensation, colour, though and sound.

Where do you end and a thought begin? Where do you end and a sound begin? Where do you end and a colour begin?

I didn't have time to look at this question. I'll do it tomorrow. I do not want to LOOK with haste. Previous questions overwhelmed me completely.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

Lovely, Kamil! Just don’t have expectations on how things should be. When you saw that Santa Claus was not real….did life change? Maybe some expectations subsided because you knew there was no Santa Claus who left presents under the tree. However, life went on. Christmas comes and goes, Santa is still seen at Christmas time and gifts are still exchanged! Did thoughts about Christmas, Santa Claus etc disappear? No, they still appear. Is there a choice to whether or not they appear? No. Life continues on but is happening to no one.

Yes, it is all expectations. I SAW it today. I've read your email a few times and then suddenly it came. That part regarding expectations. Beautiful easiness appeared. It is still here. I SEE now that significant part of the 'self' are expectations. At least in my case. Thoughts saying 'what' and 'how' it should be. It might derive from the belief that thought can shape reality. Which, of course, is another thought.

Yes! Wonderful! Whenever the word ‘should’ appears, it usually points to an expectation/assumption/belief. “I SHOULD have gotten this by now” points to the assumption/belief that there is a person who is actually LOOKING and going to ‘get this’. What is there to ‘get’ when everything is already known?

There is no one, no thing that is shaping reality. Whatever appears, appears, but what is actually appearing is soundcolourtastesmellsensationthought (aka experience itself). Experience (soundcolourthought etc) is known, it is not experienced. And why is it known, because experience is not divided into categories. Without any labels what thought labels as ‘sensation’ and the many labels given to sensation, is experience itself and experience does not know itself as ‘sensation’ it only knows itself as itself.

That part about Santa. I've read it previously. It's quite easy to understand intellectually. However, today, I SAW it. This is the difference between understanding sth and SEEING it. Understanding is just a thought.

Nevertheless, I've got a question. You wrote to me to not to have expectations. It implies that there is a choice. That 'I' can decide to hold off them. And it looked like that. Expectation arose, LOOKING followed, SEEING expectation as thought, expectation evaporated immediately. On after another. There was no entity doing it, it was just happening. But it suggests a process. Something happens, because sth else happened. A change.

And what is it exactly that suggests it’s a process? Could that also be a thought?

Any actual experience of one event following another? Any experience of one moment giving way to the next? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began, or where it ends? Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many. There is an assumption that a series of events have led to this moment. But is there really a series of moments if there isn't even one moment?
This right now, it completely timeless. Just like in a dream, the dream trees are not the result of dream seeds that were planted in an imaginary past.

Just look very carefully. Let me know what you find

To what exactly are “thoughts intrusive and countless”?
How is it known that “thoughts are intrusive and countless”?

Above questions point to the same 'spot'. I LOOK, and LOOK, and LOOK and cannot find anything. The answer has to be: a thought.

Yes, it is only thought that says thought are intrusive and countless. You are ‘aware’ of thought, but thought is not aware of you! Thought has no awareness whatsoever. Thought is an appearance in/as experience and actually thought is just an abstract appearance of THIS.

You tell me, Kamil. What are thought stories made up of? Thought, right? Do those thought stories point to AE or do they point to further thought stories?

Thought stories are mostly about something else, somewhere else. They do not point to AE. Thoughts 'create' world of their own.

Thought either points to AE or they point to further thought stories about experience itself.

The thought ‘blue sky’ in, and of itself, points to thought story, however the label ‘blue’ points to AE of colour, whereas the label ‘sky’ points to AE of thought only. What is the AE of ‘blue sky’?

When you LOOK can you find anyone or anything that is LOOKING or that is experiencing ‘relaxation and lightness’ or to whom thoughts are appearing to?

I've never managed to find anyone. When 'I' LOOK at 'I' there is always sensation, colour, though and sound.

Great! So you are ‘aware’ of the idea/story of ‘someone LOOKING’ that is appearing, but when LOOKING, it is seen that there is no one actually LOOKING.
Just as you are ‘aware’ of the story about a character called Kamil, however, when LOOKING happens/appears, can such a character be found?

Where do you end and a thought begin? Where do you end and a sound begin? Where do you end and a colour begin?

I didn't have time to look at this question. I'll do it tomorrow. I do not want to LOOK with haste. Previous questions overwhelmed me completely.

Tell me about being overwhelmed? What did this ‘overwhelm’ consist of? Fear, resistance, frustration, confusion?

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hi Kay,

And what is it exactly that suggests it’s a process? Could that also be a thought?

Yes, it is a thought.

Any actual experience of one event following another? Any experience of one moment giving way to the next? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began, or where it ends? Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many. There is an assumption that a series of events have led to this moment. But is there really a series of moments if there isn't even one moment?
This right now, it completely timeless. Just like in a dream, the dream trees are not the result of dream seeds that were planted in an imaginary past.

Just look very carefully. Let me know what you find

Time is thought. It doesn't exist in reality. It is pure concept and it doesn't lead to experience. The whole idea of time is nothing but a belief/thought. There is no 'before' and 'after'. No 'event following another', or 'giving way to the next'. Actual Experience is timeless. It just is. :)

The thought ‘blue sky’ in, and of itself, points to thought story, however the label ‘blue’ points to AE of colour, whereas the label ‘sky’ points to AE of thought only. What is the AE of ‘blue sky’?

The phrase 'blue sky' is thought.

Great! So you are ‘aware’ of the idea/story of ‘someone LOOKING’ that is appearing, but when LOOKING, it is seen that there is no one actually LOOKING.
Just as you are ‘aware’ of the story about a character called Kamil, however, when LOOKING happens/appears, can such a character be found?

No, the character called Kamil is thought. :) It has no personal features or attributes. It means that other characters do not exist as well. The whole idea of 7,5 billion individuals is thought.

Where do you end and a thought begin? Where do you end and a sound begin? Where do you end and a colour begin?

There are no borders whatsoever. In reality there is no 'end' or 'beginning'. 'It' cannot be described by word, because word is a thought and thought is not 'it'.

I didn't have time to look at this question. I'll do it tomorrow. I do not want to LOOK with haste. Previous questions overwhelmed me completely.

Tell me about being overwhelmed? What did this ‘overwhelm’ consist of? Fear, resistance, frustration, confusion?

That 'overwhelm' consisted of nothing. No-thing.

[Kamil]

Instead of pressing 'preview', I pressed 'submit' button.

Kay it so amazing to SEE all of it! And at the same time it's nothing extraordinary! Like nothing happened. Simply because there is nobody here. There is no-one doing anything. 'I' is a thought. The whole concept of person and his/her life is thought content.

And you know what. Those expectations... Hahaha :)

I do not know how to thank you... The best guide ever!

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kamil :)

Kay it so amazing to SEE all of it! And at the same time it's nothing extraordinary! Like nothing happened. Simply because there is nobody here. There is no-one doing anything. 'I' is a thought. The whole concept of person and his/her life is thought content.

Yes! How wonderful, Kamil...yes, yes, yes and yes! haha!

And you know what. Those expectations... Hahaha :)

And, yes! lol

I do not know how to thank you... The best guide ever!

Thank you, but without your LOOKING my guiding is moot! :)

Thank you, again, for being so diligent in looking and answering questions. Just a few more before the final confirmation questions.

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Much love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hey Kay,

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?

The only 'I' which exists is thought. A story of me. 'I' is a commentary to Actual Experience and with this comments it lays claim to be in possession of own part of life. Statements such as: 'I do', 'I see', 'I decide', 'I think', etc. are thoughts only and thought itself cannot do anything. When investigated it is clearly seen that neither doer nor thinker exists. Life's just happening and there is no-one controlling anything. The certainty of separate self is nothing more than belief/thought.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

Yes, it has Kay. Idea of possession is thought. Idea of control is thought. Time is just a thought.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

The whole concept/belief/conviction that there has to be someone who decides or chooses is thought content. Thought 'creates' illusion that life has to be 'this' and 'that'. When LOOKING it is SEEN that every label is just a thought and has no correspondence with reality. Belief in Big Bang is equal to a belief in Jesus Christ. Neither of it is more 'true' than the other. It's just a thought. Like every other point of view. This particular thought cannot be more real than that thought. No matter what it is.

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No it cannot. Responsibility is just a thought. If there's no doer, there is no-one to be blamed for anything.

Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

Haha. Nice one! The separate entity is thought. Past is thought. Nothing has ever been started by anyone.

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

No.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

All confusion is thought content.

Much love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil!

Lovely answers. I am going to give you the 6 final questions now. There is a double up as you have already answered a couple of them, but that is okay, just answer them again for me, please. Can you give as much detail as you can to each question, and with Question 5, please provide an example or two :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Much love,
Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hello Kay,

Once again I want to apologise for a delay. The truth is I'm worn out. I haven't slept too much lately and I do not want to write in that condition. I'm off the day after tomorrow. I'll post then.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Okay, thanks Kamil, for letting me know.

Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hello Kay,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

In Actual Experience the only 'I' that exist is a thought. When examined it is impossible to find separate self/entity. Thought 'I' claims to be the one who sees, hears, thinks, talks, walks, etc., when in fact thought cannot do anything. It 'overlays' experience with comments creating illusion of 'me'. Reality is that life just happens and no controller can be identify.

Was there ever?

If there is no 'self' at the moment it is clear it has never been one. Anyway, time is just a concept/belief. It cannot be experienced or proved. Actual Experience is timeless, while past, future and now is all content of thought. The truth is, that all there is, is 'what happens'. Idea of time and idea of 'separate me' are labels 'put' by a thought to what happens.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

There is deep, undoubted belief/conditioning that there has to be separate 'me' that possesses own part of life. When LOOKED at 'what is' all thought is seen as a concept/label. There is colour, sensation, sound, taste, smell and thought. Six aspect of Actual Experience. Nothing else can be experienced. None of the aspects can affect another aspect. Colour just is, sensation just is, sound just is, taste just is, smell just is and thought just is. Any source of each aspect cannot be identify. Any assumption, belief, certainty that there has to be reason or creator behind of what is, is just a thought.
Thought 'I' arises and illusion of separate identity is 'created'. In fact, thought cannot experience colour, sensation, sound, taste, smell or another thought. Therefore statements: 'I see', 'I hear', 'I taste', 'I think', and so on, is not the truth. It is not what actually happens, simply because thought cannot do anything. It is not the nature of thought to 'do' something. Thought is just a label to what happens. Therefore the whole 'construction' of 'separate me', all individual history, all belief, all assumptions, all expectations, all possessions are just thoughts. 'I' is thought arising. No person can be identify. Person doesn't exist.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

I wouldn't say there is that much of a difference. It is a matter of perspective. Thoughts are recognised as thoughts. 'Emotional pain' subsided, I could say. There is that delicate lightness. Thoughts still arise, emotions still appear, but the 'I' attachment melted. Experience happens just like it had before we started this conversation. Indeed, there is absolute no difference in Actual Experience at all.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I've had a few 'aha moments' during which relaxation appeared. Some of them were 'short lived', others brought few days of easiness. The last bit was definitely expectations. Seeing expectations as though only, as part of the 'self-illusion'. 'What' and 'how' things should be is thought content. Thoughts are not thought by anyone. They just occur. Therefore any personal attachment to expectations is just a thought. There is no-one expectations could point to.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

DECISION is an idea that 'creates' 'someone' who makes the decisions. While LOOKING no decider can be actually found. The afterthought - 'I' - is a label and it cannot make any decisions. Decision doesn't exist, it is just an interpretation/theory/thought to what is happening.
In order INTENTION to exist, there would have to be someone who creates intention, or at least one who makes particular CHOICES to achieve a goal. To 'choose', one would have to have FREE WILL and be able to CONTROL 'own' actions.
When it is seen that DECISION is an illusion, because there is no-one who makes it, then INTENTION, FREE WILL, CHOICE and CONTROL do not exist either.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

This question cannot be answered, because any explanation to 'what is' cannot be experienced. Colour, sound, sensation, taste and smell do not contain the motive to 'what makes things happen'. Thought is 'abound in' ideas of Supreme Being, emptiness, The Big Bang, and any other REASON behind the Actual Experience. However, the belief that thought can find the answer to 'how does IT work' is an assumption itself and it cannot be proved. The REASON doesn't have to exist. It is an idea itself.
'What is' is what happening in Actual Experience. Nothing else can be experienced.

c) What are you responsible for?

When there is no entity making any decisions, the responsibility doesn't exist. Same with thinking, if there is no thinker, who is there to be responsible for thought content?

d) Give examples from experience.

I have to admit that I struggle with examples. What kind of examples do you mean?

6) Anything to add?

No.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kamil,

Lovely responses, Kamil! I hope you are over your exhaustion.

Give examples from experience.

I have to admit that I struggle with examples. What kind of examples do you mean?

Just an example of how you have seen that there is no controller/decider/chooser or anyone that is responsible for anything in something that has recently happened in your daily life. Doesn't need to be anything profound...just a noticing how things have happened and you seeing there is no controller, choose etc.

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hi Kay.

I hope you are over your exhaustion

.

Not really Kay. Seeing 'separate self' is an illusion is clear only while looking/practising. During the day, 'I' and its struggles emerge for most of the time. There is no experience that life is happening to no-one.

Just an example of how you have seen that there is no controller/decider/chooser or anyone that is responsible for anything in something that has recently happened in your daily life. Doesn't need to be anything profound...just a noticing how things have happened and you seeing there is no controller, choose etc.

The way I see it, is that the activities happen and then thought 'I' arises saying 'I have done it'. It is obvious that the thought 'I' hasn't done anything. There's no experience of 'I' doing anything. Things happens, 'I' claims the possession of what's happening.

You wrote that 'gateless gate' is just the beginning. What happens next?

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

I hope you are over your exhaustion

Not really Kay. Seeing 'separate self' is an illusion is clear only while looking/practising. During the day, 'I' and its struggles emerge for most of the time. There is no experience that life is happening to no-one.

So, have you LOOKED to see what it is exactly that is 'exhausted'? What is the actual experience of 'exhaustion'? LOOKING to see that there is no one/no thing that is 'exhausted' doesn't remove the 'exhaustion', you just get to see that there is nothing that can be exhausted...therefore, the idea of exhaustion is a concept. However, exhaustion will still make an appearance...why wouldn't it? The thought about 'exhaustion' will still appear. Sensation labelled 'exhaustion' will still appear and thoughts about the body being exhausted will still appear and so on. But neither thought, sensation or colour know anything about exhaustion. Exhaustion, anger, sadness, happiness will continue to appear - just like santa claus continued to make an appearance after it was seen that he was just a myth. The more you LOOK to see that there is nothing that can be exhausted (or whatever is appearing) the freer you become as the seeing begins to 'take hold', so to speak.

Seeing through the illusory self is only the first step. Continual LOOKING, on a daily basis must continue to happen after the recognition has occurred. It is like ‘learning’ anything new, it has to become a habit. The more you LOOK and see there is no separate self, the deeper the seeing becomes and one day, you just notice that there is a continual awareness that the character is not you.

Yes, the constant LOOKING becomes tedious, however, there is no other way…there is no magic wand, it is just the repetitious LOOKING that deepens the realisation and then you find the LOOKING becomes automatic.

You wrote that 'gateless gate' is just the beginning. What happens next?

Seeing through the illusory self is only one of a whole series of potential realisations, although it is the crucial realisation. The ‘seeing’ has to deepen. This realisation is like the de-coring of an onion. Psychotherapy and self-improvement models work on the outerlayers of the onion and work their way inwards to improve the core of the person. However, LU is about removing the core, seeing that there is no person, and what is left is the outerlayers of the onion...and although the outerlayers need to be removed, they no longer have a core to adhere to, so they begin to fall away, however, this still takes work as well. Now that seeing through the illusory self has occurred, residual clean up must happen ie past conditioning, beliefs, patterns, reactions, emotional baggage all have to be looked at and cleared. It is up to you, to how you go about this. You can ask about this in the LU Aftercare group and see what others have done. I can also give you suggestions.

I will be asking other guides to have a look at your thread, to ensure that I haven’t missed anything and that I have guided you clearly into seeing through the illusory self. They may or may not have further questions for you. When this is done, you will be invited to the LU Aftercare group on Facebook. It is there you can interact with other ‘gatecrashers’ and discuss your experience, or bring up further questions.

You can also create another thread in the “Further Investigation” forum and ask for a guide to continue guiding you there on a deeper level. If you like, you and I can continue, or you can ask for a new guide.

Asking the other guides to look at your thread may take a day or two. If they have further questions, I will post them or if not, I will let you know and then soon after you will get the invitation to join the LU Aftercare group.

Love, Kay
xx

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kamil,

Other guides have looked at the thread and there are no further questions. That didn't take as long as I thought it might!

It has been a pleasure walking with you to the Gateless Gate and we will remain in touch. I will send you a PM via the forum. You will also receive an invitation to join the LU Aftercare FB group and bits and pieces of other resources available.

Much love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hey Kay,

The pleasure is all mine. Thank you for your delicate and elegant approach. For your mighty patience.
From the other side, I want to apologise for the stubbornness. Reason for that was the great will to reach the gate.

I'm deeply grateful.

Much love,

Kamil