I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

Experience is not derived from people and things. People and things are derived from experience.

To be honest, from the very first time I read these statements they are kind of empty to me. They do not mean anything. I could try to conclude what they point to. It means that experience is everything and there is nothing detached from it. It is however 'dry' conclusion, there's no experience of it.

And what would this experience that you are waiting for look and feel like?

2. Thought appears that ‘tell stories’, and thoughts appearance is not thought, but experience itself showing up as thought.

This sentence has exactly the same meaning as the previous one. It shows as well, that there is not independent thinker.

What does the word ‘experience’ mean to you?

Today, again, I've been reading Ilona's blog. The conversations she's had with other people. LOOKING at some questions she's posed and practicing it. SEEING that an "I" doesn't exist. It is a thought. It doesn't even last. It appears and disappears. How could something that is impermanent be a person? The 'I' screams that it is a doer. It monopolises 'own' part of experience creating illusion that there is someone who's in charge.

I asked you not to read stuff while we were doing this exploration because it can be counterproductive to the exploration. Not only do Ilona and I guide differently, but I am trying to get you to LOOK so that you get those ‘aha’ moments for yourself from looking. If you had been able to ‘get it’ from reading, you would have already gotten it. Having an intellectual understanding is good, but it’s the ‘aha’ moments, the moment when it is felt that symbolises recognition of what is being understood intellectually. Please refrain from reading stuff while we are doing this exploration.

What are you referring to as ‘experience’? What experience are you talking about? It sounds to me you are referring to the experience of a person – the doings of a person who is living life (ie working, eating, sleeping, laughing, crying) and that that person is waiting for some sort of experience that says they are not a person.

For a person to become enlightened it would first need to be aware. Yet if you look right now, you'll see that there is zero evidence of people being aware.

Are you a person that is aware or are you simply aware? Do you perceive the world via a body and mind, or are the world, body and mind simply known to you? If it's clear that you are not a person that is aware, it should also be clear that "other people" aren't either, and that the world, body and mind, or shall we say "experience", is known by you in its entirety right here and now.

You that are aware of experience couldn't possibly be more enlightened or awake than you are now. People that seem to be aware are but appearances in and as experience, and are no more aware than the appearance of a rock or a sound are.

And to take this a step further, where is the line that separates you from experience? If you look right now, can you find a "you" that is separate from experience? Or is there only experience, which is the knowing of itself?

I asked you to contemplate the fact that experience, which is thoughtsoundtastesmellcoloursensation is not derived from people and things, but people and things are derived from experience. Your response was that experience is dry! This is all there is. THIS is IT…there is nothing more. There is no other experience or experiences, but somehow, it seems, you are still waiting on some sort of experience, whether it be a change in state by becoming blissful or somehow integrating with everything and becoming one, or somehow you disappear and something mystical takes it place or something. Whatever this moment is…IS IT. There is nothing more.

Colour IS an appearance, and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.
Thought IS an appearance, and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.
Sound IS an appearance, and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.
Smell IS an appearance, and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.
Taste IS an appearance, and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.
Sensation IS an appearance, and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.

Thought is so slow and shallow. When I'm at work doing various activities at the same time, it is so clear that thought wouldn't be able to do all of that. It wouldn't be able to comprehend those actions. Especially when thinking is completely somewhere else concerned with something else. It's so clear that thought is not a doer.

Yes, it might be clear, but you still think there is a doer. So, it’s not clear at all. Also, you are looking at thought as if it is a separate object, but thought is experience appearing as thought…and when you contemplate that, it’s quite an amazing phenomenon.

This exploration is not about seeing what you are, but is about seeing what you are not. It’s seeing how the mechanisms of an “I” are held in place. That is all this exploration is about. It is an entirely different exploration into seeing what you are, although it is touched upon throughout this exploration.

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hi Kay,

And what would this experience that you are waiting for look and feel like?

I do not know. An 'aha moment'. A clarity. Maybe a relief. When I read testimonials of other people it is definitely something recognisable.

What does the word ‘experience’ mean to you?

That's the thing. I've read it so many times already that it basically doesn't mean anything to me. I know that you write it as a synonym to 'everything what is'.

I asked you not to read stuff while we were doing this exploration because it can be counterproductive to the exploration.

Ok, I'll do so.

What are you referring to as ‘experience’? What experience are you talking about? It sounds to me you are referring to the experience of a person – the doings of a person who is living life (ie working, eating, sleeping, laughing, crying) and that that person is waiting for some sort of experience that says they are not a person.

Not exactly. I understand that the shift is more likely a recognition.

For a person to become enlightened it would first need to be aware. Yet if you look right now, you'll see that there is zero evidence of people being aware.

What the 'aware' stands for you Kay?

Are you a person that is aware or are you simply aware?

I'm simply aware.

Do you perceive the world via a body and mind, or are the world, body and mind simply known to you?

When I sit quietly and LOOK, I can SEE the body and mind as concepts. But as soon as I'm 'out there', I constantly find myself in a trap of being a person. So, I expect liberation to be permanent. No self to return.

If it's clear that you are not a person that is aware, it should also be clear that "other people" aren't either, and that the world, body and mind, or shall we say "experience", is known by you in its entirety right here and now.

I do not see it yet.

And to take this a step further, where is the line that separates you from experience? If you look right now, can you find a "you" that is separate from experience? Or is there only experience, which is the knowing of itself?

The line doesn't exist. There is no me separate from the experience. "Experience which is the knowing of itself" sounds like a concept to me. It's like creating something more than what is. I see it (life) as a mystery. Couldn't go further with describing that 'what is'.

Could you explain what do you mean by "there is only experience, which is the knowing of itself", please?

This is all there is. THIS is IT…there is nothing more. There is no other experience or experiences, but somehow, it seems, you are still waiting on some sort of experience, whether it be a change in state by becoming blissful or somehow integrating with everything and becoming one, or somehow you disappear and something mystical takes it place or something. Whatever this moment is…IS IT. There is nothing more.

I think I SAW it. The waiting. Yes, it looks like I'm waiting for some sort of "other experience". Some change. Definitely not one of the states you mentioned above. :) I do not believe in fairy tails. Yes, so I SEE the waiting.

Ok, you wrote: "whatever this moment is…IS IT. There is nothing more". Nothing to look for. Let's see how it goes now.

Thanks,

Kamil.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

When I sit quietly and LOOK, I can SEE the body and mind as concepts. But as soon as I'm 'out there', I constantly find myself in a trap of being a person. So, I expect liberation to be permanent. No self to return.

You have already seen through the illusory self while LOOKING to see if the body's eyes see. The shift was very subtle. There is something else going on and what you wrote above is what the problem is. There was no separate self before this exploration started, there is no separate self reading this now, and there will be no separate self tomorrow.

What does permanent liberation look like? What is it exactly that is waiting for "permanent liberation" and "no self to return"? What does 'no self' actually feel like?


Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hello Kay.

Something happened today Kay. :) I checked my phone in the morning while at work. I was reading your questions, LOOKING at them.

What does permanent liberation look like? What is it exactly that is waiting for "permanent liberation" and "no self to return"? What does 'no self' actually feel like?

Then I SAW it, what you're asking for. That thought 'pattern'. Expectation it has to be something different than what is. I do not remember exactly how it went. The exploration. Question after question was dissolved instantly. The shift was as gentle as it could be. Relaxation and lightness. Clarity.

That something that is waiting for 'permanent liberation' and 'no self', that one that is not satisfied with what is, is a thought. Thought that cannot become anything anyway. Self is a thought. No-self as well.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hello Kamil!

What does permanent liberation look like? What is it exactly that is waiting for "permanent liberation" and "no self to return"? What does 'no self' actually feel like?

Then I SAW it, what you're asking for. That thought 'pattern'. Expectation it has to be something different than what is. I do not remember exactly how it went. The exploration. Question after question was dissolved instantly. The shift was as gentle as it could be. Relaxation and lightness. Clarity.

That something that is waiting for 'permanent liberation' and 'no self', that one that is not satisfied with what is, is a thought. Thought that cannot become anything anyway. Self is a thought. No-self as well.

Beautiful, Kamil! :) Yes, it is only thought and 'you' are aware of all thought at it's face value, but what thought points to is pure fiction, unless it is actually pointing to actual experience.

What I would like for you to do now is to go back and read your entire thread from start to finish. Have a look a the exercises given and questions asked and if there is anything that you are not clear about, let me know and we can look at it again.

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hi Kay.

What I would like for you to do now is to go back and read your entire thread from start to finish. Have a look a the exercises given and questions asked and if there is anything that you are not clear about, let me know and we can look at it again.

Ok. I'll do it.

I just have a question. How does your perception look like after the shift? Is there a firm, constant knowing that there is no self?

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

I just have a question. How does your perception look like after the shift? Is there a firm, constant knowing that there is no self?

Going through the 'gateless gate' is a beginning, not and ending. It took me many months of continual LOOKING after gating for the constant knowing that there is no self to come into place. I can't say how long it will take for you...but seeing the the illusory self during this exploration isn't enough to keep it constant...well not in my experience. You have to keep LOOKING until LOOKING becomes automatic and then LOOKING still occurs until all concepts about the body, time, objects are totally seen through.

And to take this a step further, where is the line that separates you from experience? If you look right now, can you find a "you" that is separate from experience? Or is there only experience, which is the knowing of itself?

The line doesn't exist. There is no me separate from the experience. "Experience which is the knowing of itself" sounds like a concept to me. It's like creating something more than what is. I see it (life) as a mystery. Couldn't go further with describing that 'what is'.

Could you explain what do you mean by "there is only experience, which is the knowing of itself", please?

Exactly, there is "no 'me separate from experience (not THE experience). Experience is NOT divided into taste AND smell AND sound AND sensation AND colour AND thought. There is only experience....not experiences. There is no AND. There is only soundsensationcolourthoughttastesmell and it is aware of itself.

How can life be a mystery?
What, exactly, are you not aware of right now? Is there ANYTHING that you're not aware of right now? Is there anything you don't know?

Why things happen is a mystery because there is no one controlling or doing anything, it just appears as it appears, however, what is the AE of what is appearing? Life is appearing in/as THIS, and THIS is soundsensationtastesmellcolourthought.

Awareness/experience does not reside in anything. It is not contained by anyone/anything. Awareness/experience is THIS.

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hey Kay,

Going through the 'gateless gate' is a beginning, not and ending. It took me many months of continual LOOKING after gating for the constant knowing that there is no self to come into place. I can't say how long it will take for you...but seeing the the illusory self during this exploration isn't enough to keep it constant...well not in my experience. You have to keep LOOKING until LOOKING becomes automatic and then LOOKING still occurs until all concepts about the body, time, objects are totally seen through.

Thank you Kay.

It took me many months of continual LOOKING...

You have to keep LOOKING until LOOKING becomes automatic

How is it done? Did you contemplate LOOKING as a meditation process. Did you sit down with your eyes closed or open and LOOKED, or LOOKING was 'done' during everyday activities?

How can life be a mystery?

Mystery is a concept as well. It is an assumption that there is someone separate who perceives life. In this case as mysterious. A hypothesis that there is something more than what is, or there has to be a reason/creator behind it. It is a thought of course.

What, exactly, are you not aware of right now? Is there ANYTHING that you're not aware of right now? Is there anything you don't know?

Hahaha. Good question. :) Pure fantasy.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

You have to keep LOOKING until LOOKING becomes auto

matic

How is it done? Did you contemplate LOOKING as a meditation process. Did you sit down with your eyes closed or open and LOOKED, or LOOKING was 'done' during everyday activities?

Both. If ‘fear’, say, appeared…I would sit and LOOK at ‘fear’. I would break it down like I showed you how to break it down. I would close my eyes and:

1) Look at the label/thought itself…bring it to the ‘minds eye’.
Inquire into the label/thought and ask it the label/thought knows anything about fear?
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the thought itself that can be ‘fearful’.

2) Look at the sensation, ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about fear.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation that can be fearful.

3) Look at the image/colour labelled body, whether that image be ‘mental’ or ‘visual’.
Inquire into the colour and ask if the colour itself knows anything about fear.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about fear.

I would then look around everywhere else ‘inside the body, from the toes to the head’ and see if I could find anyone/anything anywhere that could be fearful and see that all that was really appearing was labelthoughtsensationimage. I would then just be with the sensation and when it subsided…get on with what I was doing. If I couldn’t do all this in that moment, I would then sit quietly later and bring it back up and do this exercise.

And yes, just LOOK throughout your day to what is it exactly that is ‘doing’ anything…and break things down into AE. It was tedious and the ‘mind’ rebelled, but I just kept on doing it.

How can life be a mystery?

Mystery is a concept as well. It is an assumption that there is someone separate who perceives life. In this case as mysterious. A hypothesis that there is something more than what is, or there has to be a reason/creator behind it. It is a thought of course.

Yes, and remember and assumption is just another thought. Anytime an assumption appears is another opportunity to LOOK to see what is actual!

So go back and read your thread and when you have, just let me know what you noticed and if it brought up any questions for you.

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hello Kay.

I'm just writing to let you know that I've been reading our conversations from the beginning. Just as you asked for. I stopped at the following exercise:

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

It feels quite different at the moment. Comparing it to my previous efforts. The difference consist in the lack of emotional attachment.

Anyway, one of the questions you asked:

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is no organised sequence. They simply pop out just like that. However it seems that they 'can' float around some content 'for a while'. It gives the impression that one though is about some other though.

Funny thing. I saw it today. If it's only 'soundsensationcolourthoughttastesmell', it means that whatever appears apart from sound, sensation, colour, taste or smell is a thought. EVERYTHING else. Every single point of view, every statement, every concept, every conclusion, every certainty, every anxiety, every belief and disbelief is a thought. Nothing else exists. Amazing! No wonder that all masters are so relaxed. :)

Thank you Kay.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kamil! :)

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is no organised sequence. They simply pop out just like that. However it seems that they 'can' float around some content 'for a while'. It gives the impression that one though is about some other though.

Yes and the "it seems that they 'can' float around some content 'for a while'. It gives the impression that one though is about some other though"...is also just a thought! :)

Funny thing. I saw it today. If it's only 'soundsensationcolourthoughttastesmell', it means that whatever appears apart from sound, sensation, colour, taste or smell is a thought. EVERYTHING else. Every single point of view, every statement, every concept, every conclusion, every certainty, every anxiety, every belief and disbelief is a thought. Nothing else exists. Amazing! No wonder that all masters are so relaxed. :)

Yes! Thought overlays experience with stories. It's not that those appearances don't appear...because they do...but the stories about the appearances are just that...stories! :)

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hey Kay.

I couldn't do any reading at the weekend. I'm back now. I'll post something in a day or two.

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil...thank you for letting me know! :)

Love, Kay
xx

[Kamil]

Hello Kay,

On the 9th of February when I was writing an email to you I SAW that everything else apart from colour, sensation, taste, smell and sound is a thought. It was very clear. Profound lightness and relaxation emerged. During next few days I was busy with other things, but the relaxation remained. Situations, that previously would have stimulated deep emotions, occurred, and even then, I found myself unusually peaceful 'inside'.

In the course of last two days many doubts emerged. I see them as thoughts. The problem is intensity. Funny thing, it's all quiet and peaceful when I'm writing an email to you, but when at work it's quite opposite. Why is it so Kay? Why when I sit silently thoughts are nothing but some thoughts and when I'm busy doing various things thoughts are intrusive and countless?

I've been practising the 'palm' exercise. It's clearly that the decision cannot be experienced. Although, while practicing, thought appears and 'says' that the movement would stop in five seconds, counting down and the palm stops. Another thought says to start the movement, count to five and do not stop this time, this is what happens. It can be whatever. Thought says move your right hand, now left, right leg, left leg, so on... It all happens. Thought comes first then the exercise or activity happens. Thoughts still support the belief in a doer.

I've got another question. We are here to find out that there is no self, that 'I' is just a thought, that there is no doer or thinker. However, there seem to be a process of LOOKING. When one SEES some changes appear. There's that relaxation and lightness. Once you wrote that after some time thoughts decrease. To whom does it happen?

Love,

Kamil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Kamil,

On the 9th of February when I was writing an email to you I SAW that everything else apart from colour, sensation, taste, smell and sound is a thought. It was very clear. Profound lightness and relaxation emerged. During next few days I was busy with other things, but the relaxation remained. Situations, that previously would have stimulated deep emotions, occurred, and even then, I found myself unusually peaceful 'inside'.

Lovely, Kamil! Just don’t have expectations on how things should be. When you saw that Santa Claus was not real….did life change? Maybe some expectations subsided because you knew there was no Santa Claus who left presents under the tree. However, life went on. Christmas comes and goes, Santa is still seen at Christmas time and gifts are still exchanged! Did thoughts about Christmas, Santa Claus etc disappear? No, they still appear. Is there a choice to whether or not they appear? No. Life continues on but is happening to no one.

In the course of last two days many doubts emerged. I see them as thoughts. The problem is intensity. Funny thing, it's all quiet and peaceful when I'm writing an email to you, but when at work it's quite opposite. Why is it so Kay? Why when I sit silently thoughts are nothing but some thoughts and when I'm busy doing various things thoughts are intrusive and countless?

To what exactly are “thoughts intrusive and countless”?
How is it known that “thoughts are intrusive and countless”?

There is an expectation here…have a look to see what this expectation is. There is nothing wrong with expectations. Just see that expectations are thoughts that no one thinks. And that no one can get something. What is there to get?

Do you expect a rainbow to disappear, just because you know it's an illusion?
Did Santa Claus disappear just because you found out he wasn’t real?
Why then, would you expect the illusion of 'you', as a separate entity, to disappear?
This experience, however it shows up, is what is showing up….life lifing!

I've been practising the 'palm' exercise. It's clearly that the decision cannot be experienced. Although, while practicing, thought appears and 'says' that the movement would stop in five seconds, counting down and the palm stops. Another thought says to start the movement, count to five and do not stop this time, this is what happens. It can be whatever. Thought says move your right hand, now left, right leg, left leg, so on... It all happens. Thought comes first then the exercise or activity happens. Thoughts still support the belief in a doer.

There is an expectation here that thought will change its tune! Thought doesn't stop telling you that it's your car, your job, your body, your craving, your preference, your pain, your happiness, your thoughts, your suffering, your this and your that. Why would thought stop saying something just because it's seen that you are not a separate self? It's never been any other way.

What about when you roll over in bed when asleep? Did a thought appear to tell the body to roll over? If your theory fits, then you must be aware of that thought whilst you are asleep so that you can action the body to roll over. Are you aware of those thoughts and are you aware of the body rolling over? Look at this very carefully.

I've got another question. We are here to find out that there is no self, that 'I' is just a thought, that there is no doer or thinker. However, there seem to be a process of LOOKING. When one SEES some changes appear. There's that relaxation and lightness. Once you wrote that after some time thoughts decrease. To whom does it happen?

You tell me, Kamil. What are thought stories made up of? Thought, right? Do those thought stories point to AE or do they point to further thought stories?

When you LOOK can you find anyone or anything that is LOOKING or that is experiencing ‘relaxation and lightness’ or to whom thoughts are appearing to?
Where do you end and a thought begin? Where do you end and a sound begin? Where do you end and a colour begin?

Love, Kay
xx