Seeking Liberation

[jmseveridt]

We did 'feeling' - Was there a separate 'thing' found doing the feeling?
Was the body doing the feeling?
Or perhaps you mean something more general - How so?

More of a general sense (maybe assumption is a better way to put it) that there is a separate self that is doing the experiencing. Again, when I inquire into this I cannot find anything, but the general sense is still there unless I question it directly. It seems as if I have grasped it intellectually, but not in my actual experience outside of those times when I am inquiring into something.

Are you expecting something to change?
Or just to realise that there is no inherent self?

I do not have any expectation that something will change except to realize there is no inherent self.

[Xain]

Again, when I inquire into this I cannot find anything, but the general sense is still there unless I question it directly

Is there a 'real you' questioning it?

It seems as if I have grasped it intellectually, but not in my actual experience

What would be the difference?
Who's 'actual experience' are you referring to?

Xain ♥

[Xain]

And perhaps even more importantly, exactly who or what are you referring to that 'could only have grasped it intellectually'?

Xain x

[jmseveridt]

Is there a 'real you' questioning it?

No, there is not a real 'me' that can be found.

What would be the difference?
Who's 'actual experience' are you referring to?

Perhaps I am waiting for some felt experience or there is an expectation or assumption that somehow the realization will be
experienced all the time, rather than only when inquiring into experience. I see that there is nobody to actually experience this when I look directly, but I have to admit it still feels like there is a separate 'me' most of the time.

And perhaps even more importantly, exactly who or what are you referring to that 'could only have grasped it intellectually'?

I see that I am referring to the person I have taken myself to be, but nothing can be found outside of the thoughts about the separate me.

[Xain]

Perhaps I am waiting for some felt experience or there is an expectation or assumption that somehow the realization will be
experienced all the time

By whom?

rather than only when inquiring into experience.

I understand, but even here is there a 'real you' doing that?
Is there a 'real you' who is not doing that if that task isn't being engaged in?

I see that I am referring to the person I have taken myself to be, but nothing can be found outside of the thoughts about the separate me.

Exactly! You notice the self-referencing / circular nature of the thought process.

You realise 'no self' when it is realised that there is no self to realise anything.

Forgive my relentless questions and pointing. I sense you have reached a point when it might not be necessary anymore.
Is there an inherent self? A 'real you'?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

I understand, but even here is there a 'real you' doing that?
Is there a 'real you' who is not doing that if that task isn't being engaged in?

No, there is no 'real me' doing any of this, it just seems that way until it is investigated further.

You realise 'no self' when it is realised that there is no self to realise anything.

This makes a lot of sense. 'I' can see how there has been anticipation that a separate 'me' was going to somehow realize that the 'me' was not real, which seems ridiculous now that it is apparent.

Is there an inherent self? A 'real you'?

There is not. Only thoughts and images taken to be a real 'me'.

[Xain]

There is not. Only thoughts and images taken to be a real 'me'.

Yes!

So without any more relentless pointing :-) How do you feel?
I sense this realisation isn't 'earth shattering' for you, perhaps? Does what we have covered make sense? Are things clear?
Have you realised how the thought process appears to generate an apparent self?

Do you have any further questions? There are a further six questions I can ask as part of this process, which may unearth areas which you might not be 100% clear on which we can explore together, perhaps? - Ready to give them a go?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

How do you feel? I sense this realisation isn't 'earth shattering' for you, perhaps?

I would not say I feel any different than I did before. There was not an earth shattering realization or shift, but I tried to put all expectations aside.

Does what we have covered make sense? Are things clear? Have you realised how the thought process appears to generate an apparent self?

Yes, what we covered makes sense. It is clear there is no self as I thought there was before we began talking, but the realization has not shifted anything really. The separate self still feels real, but when I look directly it is nowhere to be found.

Do you have any further questions? There are a further six questions I can ask as part of this process, which may unearth areas which you might not be 100% clear on which we can explore together, perhaps? - Ready to give them a go?

Let's give the 6 questions a shot, perhaps they will help clear up any lingering uncertainty.

[Xain]

Yes, what we covered makes sense. It is clear there is no self as I thought there was before we began talking, but the realization has not shifted anything really

What is expected to shift?

The separate self still feels real

Can you describe how it feels real? What do you mean exactly with those words?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

What is expected to shift?

I don't think there was/is any expectation that a shift would happen... I was saying that in response to your question/comment that perhaps the realization was not earth shattering. So to answer another way, yes, there was nothing earth shattering that occurred, just a realization and nothing else.

Can you describe how it feels real? What do you mean exactly with those words?

Even though I cannot find any separate self when I look directly it still seems like I am a separate person just as it did before. The only difference is when 'I' inquire into that I can see that there is nothing separate, only the thoughts and images. It is like the assumption or belief still exists, but is seen through when investigated.

[Xain]

Thanks - I ask these questions as I don't like loose-ends not examined, or for you to have a feeling that you've 'maybe not quite got it' etc

To put the realisation in a different context . . . if we realise that there was no 'real I' yesterday, there isn't one here right now, and there won't be one tomorrow . . . what change or 'shift' can be really expected . . . what is going to change or shift if there was never a real 'I' . . . surely the only thing that could be done is just to realise this very thing (and paradoxically, realise that no real I ever realised anything!)

As time goes by and the realisation sinks in, things may start clearing things up. The continous 'selfing' process of thoughts and in the senses won't stop immediately. In time, things may slowly ease.

It is like the assumption or belief still exists, but is seen through when investigated.

What you are describing is in appearance.
Often, the expectation is that the 'I' in thoughts will from now on, always be 'seen through'. But can you see that woul require a controller over thoughts?
An 'I' that had choice and control and the power to change something.
I hope you realise that this is in appearance only. There isn't a 'real self' that pops back when a 'real self' isn't investigating ;-)

Even this realisation . . . was there ever any real choice or control in having it / achieving it?
Was there ever a real 'you' realising something anyway?

Digest that, and I'll post the six questions next when you are ready.

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

Thanks, Xain. I appreciate the clarification

Often, the expectation is that the 'I' in thoughts will from now on, always be 'seen through'. But can you see that would require a controller over thoughts?

Yes, I see now that this was a sort of unconscious assumption that I had about seeing through the reality of a separate self. I can see now how that would require a controller and there is not controller of thoughts to be found.

Even this realisation . . . was there ever any real choice or control in having it / achieving it?
Was there ever a real 'you' realising something anyway?

No, the realization just happened without any separate 'me; there that had or achieved it.

I am ready for the 6 questions when you are.

[Xain]

I am ready for the 6 questions when you are

Great, Justin! Here are the first three of the six.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) from before you started this guidance with me?
Please report from the past few days.

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

Hi Xain, I apologize for the delay in my response to your post below. I have been out unexpectedly the last few days. I will be sending my response to your questions tomorrow.

[Xain]

No problem - Thank you for letting me know.

Xain ♥