Seeking Liberation

[Xain]

Great, Justin.

Let's proceed on now to 'hearing' - Approach this in the same way - Just focus only on this one sense for the moment.

Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside.
Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the witnessing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? A 'Body'? A 'Justin'? Can these be found? Or (as we saw before) are these statements 'just a thought about it'?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

No, just 'what can be heard'

2) Can what is doing the witnessing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

It does appear that there is a distance between 'what can be heard' and the witnessing of that, but when I look directly I cannot actually find that witness.

3) An 'I'? A 'Body'? A 'Justin'? Can these be found? Or (as we saw before) are these statements 'just a thought about it'?

No, these cannot be found outside of just the thoughts about them.

[Xain]

It does appear that there is a distance between 'what can be heard' and the witnessing of that, but when I look directly I cannot actually find that witness.

No problem - As I say, the apparent distance is something that can be examined later on.

No, these cannot be found outside of just the thoughts about them.

Great! Same thing again.

Ok, we move on to 'Feeling'.
Please close your eyes for this exercise, as the 'seeing' sense is very powerful and may take you away from answering only from the feeling sense alone.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? I mean, are there two things (and hand and a desk) or is there one thing - A sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

In the other examinations we were getting close to 'can't find a separate witness in seeing and hearing', or rather, any suggestion about a separate witness is via thought - What about 'feeling' now?
This includes 'the body' as witness.

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

1) How many things do you find? I mean, are there two things (and hand and a desk) or is there one thing - A sensation.

Just a sensation

2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

Without thinking, just a sensation

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Only a sensation

[Xain]

Great!

Hopefully once again you can see the same thing happening.
Thoughts suggest one thing, but investigating your experience reveals that the thoughts don't stand up to scrutiny.

I usually leave the sense of smell and taste out, as they are weaker senses - But you can examine these in the same way as we have been doing.

Ok, let's try to tie everything together now.

If I add all the senses together . . . whatever is appearing the senses, I'll just refer to it as 'the current experience'.

1) In experience, is there anything more than 'the current experience' (sounds a little strange to ask, but there it is).
2) Is there an 'I', a person, a body or anything at all separate that is found 'experiencing' . . . or is there just 'the current experience'?

Perhaps I could tie it all in, in a different way.
Is 'I am experiencing' or 'This body is experiencing' anything more than an idea - A belief - A thought?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

Is 'I am experiencing' or 'This body is experiencing' anything more than an idea - A belief - A thought?

It feels as if I am experiencing what is being experienced, but when I look directly I cannot find the 'I' that is experiencing. Also, the thoughts about 'I' experiencing are very subtle, more like an assumption, but again upon further investigation there is not a separate me that could be found outside of the thoughts and assumptions.

[Xain]

It feels as if I am experiencing what is being experienced.

I understand - This 'general feeling of being separate' is something to examine later.

Upon further investigation there is not a separate me that could be found outside of the thoughts and assumptions.

Spot on!
Ok, now we've done the senses and whether they relate to a body (or separate person / self), let's examine 'choice and control'.
We'll do 'control' first.

Here's a very simple exercise you can do while sat down.

Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which.
Then when you've chosen one, and you feel you wish to, raise that hand into the air.

Do this as many times as you like, but each time you do it - Inquire on this:

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Justin, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?
What exactly is making that happen?
What do you FIND?

Just as a note, of course the limbs of the body are 'seen' and they are seen to be moving.
Remember we are trying to find what causes such a thing to happen. What and where is the controller found?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?

No, nothing can be found that is making this happen.

2) Can an 'I', a Justin, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?

No, just an underlying assumption that I am doing it, nothing could be found directly.

What exactly is making that happen?

I don't know

What do you FIND?

Nothing that is controlling the movements or making things happen... just the movements.

[Xain]

No, just an underlying assumption that I am doing it, nothing could be found directly.

An assumption. Yes.
Notice, though, that we are looking for a REAL SELF that is in control. Not an assumed one.
Yet one cannot be found - We can only 'find it' (if you want to call it that) by going to assumptions!

What can you find?
Nothing that is controlling the movements or making things happen... just the movements.

So what makes 'a branch swaying in the wind' different from 'my arm that is rising into the air'?
I mean we would normally assume one is 'just happening' and the other 'is being controlled by a self'?

Try the same exercise, but this time with 'CHOICE'

1) Can what is choosing the hand (left or right) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Justin, (or the body itself??) be found that is choosing?
What exactly is making the choice?
What do you FIND?

What proof do you have that an actual choice is being made!?!
(Not an assumed choice, a 'real' choice).

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

So what makes 'a branch swaying in the wind' different from 'my arm that is rising into the air'?
I mean we would normally assume one is 'just happening' and the other 'is being controlled by a self'?

There is no difference between a branch swaying in the wind and my arm rising into the air. Both are just happening, but appear different because of the thoughts that come up about each experience.

1) Can what is choosing the hand (left or right) be FOUND?

No, there is nothing choosing which hand to lift that can be found in direct experience.

2) Can an 'I', a Justin, (or the body itself??) be found that is choosing?
What exactly is making the choice?
What do you FIND?

No, nothing can be found that is choosing. When looked at directly there is no choice that can be found at all and in turn, nothing that is making the choice.

What proof do you have that an actual choice is being made!?!

There is no proof a choice is being made at all.

[Xain]

There is no difference between a branch swaying in the wind and my arm rising into the air. Both are just happening, but appear different because of the thoughts that come up about each experience.

Yes. Good.
Thoughts themselves come in and suggest the difference.

In fact, let's look at thoughts right now.
Both thought and imagination can be examined in the same way.

Think a thought, or imagine an object. Anything will do.
Now inquire:

1) Can what created or 'made' that thought or imagined object be found?
2) Can what is witnessing the thought or imagined object be found?
3) What control is there to create thoughts, or to stop thoughts from appearing.
There may APPEAR to be control (through thinking about what is happening, but what do you FIND in control?)
If there was REAL control, could thoughts be completely stopped for one day?

Xain ♥

P.S. Once you have done this exercise, can you tell me what choice you had in doing it (or not doing it)?

[jmseveridt]

1) Can what created or 'made' that thought or imagined object be found?

Nothing can be found that created or made the thought.

2) Can what is witnessing the thought or imagined object be found?

No, a witness to the thought cannot be found.

3) What control is there to create thoughts, or to stop thoughts from appearing.
There may APPEAR to be control (through thinking about what is happening, but what do you FIND in control?)
If there was REAL control, could thoughts be completely stopped for one day?

I cannot find anyone that is creating or controlling thoughts. There is just more thoughts about being in control, but nothing can be experienced directly that is actually doing this. Thoughts just come and go and there is no one there to stop them.

Once you have done this exercise, can you tell me what choice you had in doing it (or not doing it)?

It seemed as if I chose to do this, rather than do other things, but when investigated further there was no one that chose that could be found and thus, no choice at all. There were thoughts about a choice, but not an actual choice outside of those thoughts.

[Xain]

It seemed as if I chose to do this, rather than do other things, but when investigated further there was no one that chose that could be found and thus, no choice at all. There were thoughts about a choice, but not an actual choice outside of those thoughts.

Yes, exactly.

Was there ever a real choice? I mean EVER?
Will there ever be a real choice?
Is there even a 'real choice' to reply to this message or not?

Of course, we can talk about choices - But was there ever a real choice to have this guidance?
Was there ever a real chooser?

. . . and focusing my attention.

Is there a focusser of attention?
Can you find something here right now that controls or chooses where attention goes?
Or just an idea / thoughts of one?

Right now, is there a real separate self experiencing life, thinking thoughts, directing attention? Was there ever?

Xain ♥

[jmseveridt]

Was there ever a real choice? I mean EVER?

No, just thoughts that can make it appear as if there was a choice.

Will there ever be a real choice?
Is there even a 'real choice' to reply to this message or not?

There is no real choice to reply to this message. There is no chooser to be found and without someone or something to choose there cannot be a choice.

Of course, we can talk about choices - But was there ever a real choice to have this guidance?
Was there ever a real chooser?

No, while there seemed to be someone that chose to have this guidance when looked at directly that person is nowhere to be found.

Is there a focusser of attention?
Can you find something here right now that controls or chooses where attention goes?
Or just an idea / thoughts of one?

All that can be found are ideas and thoughts about someone that is focusing attention. Outside of the thoughts and ideas nothing can be found that is doing the focusing.

Right now, is there a real separate self experiencing life, thinking thoughts, directing attention? Was there ever?

It feels as if there is a real separate self that is doing all these things, but when I inquire and look directly I cannot find anything separate that is doing these things except through thoughts.

[Xain]

It feels as if there is a real separate self that is doing all these things

We did 'feeling' - Was there a separate 'thing' found doing the feeling?
Was the body doing the feeling?

Or perhaps you mean something more general - How so?

Are you expecting something to change?
Or just to realise that there is no inherent self?

Xain ♥