Liberation vs neuroscience.

[Ilona]

Word self itself causes a lot of confusion as different schools of 'enlightenment' have different definitions.

Let's see what is it that you call 'self'
What does this word point to?

Have a good look.

Then check what words I/me point to. Are they more than other words? If so, what makes them special?

[buddhawarrior]

Word self itself causes a lot of confusion as different schools of 'enlightenment' have different definitions.

Let's see what is it that you call 'self'
What does this word point to?

Have a good look.

Then check what words I/me point to. Are they more than other words? If so, what makes them special?

Self? What does it point to for me?

First of all I have to say that my current practice has been for many years now to not define these words and rest in the unknown, take faith in the flow of nature and use mantra to control the Attachment to thought streams.

So now, to define, I feel like I have done that quite a lot in this forum already. Which I don't think is good because as you say, causes a lot of confusion.

In earlier posts I said that the word "I" is just a label. Much like the word "car" is a label for the sum of he parts. The engine by itself is useless, the wheels with out the rest is useless, but put all together, u have a functioning car. Same as the words self, or I. When I use these words, it is just the label for the sum of the parts that create a functioning whole.

But in the case of this site, the words self, I, refer to ego, and identity. Which is useful in liberation because identifies that Which does not exist.

Let me take another look from my view. Self? Yesterday, I was having a very bad day. There were a number of things and reasons why it might have been so, but when I look at those reasons, I saw that they did not really add up to why I was having such a bad day. all those thought streams are there whether or not I'm having a bad day. Then I was wondering why I was trying to solve the problem. Why I was not allowed to have a bad day. Why I wanted a good day? Was I in control? Could I have changed the outcome. No real answers came. A bunch of answers came. But none stood out as real. I ended up just sticking to mantra. Cut the loop. The day continued to be bad and got much worst, but I stuck to mantra. I felt like crying, but I was fine with it. I felt like screaming, and if I did, that's okay too. I felt okay with the bad day. The day will run it's course.

Looking for the ego self, I don't see one. All thoughts, all actions, all external events, all negative and positive feelings, they all occured, all real. There was no self involved. No ego, no I.

Is I/me special?

In a way, yes they are special. I think of my two year old, learning to use me and my. How she loves these two words. Everything is me,me,me, my ,my, my. My guitar, my water, my daddy, my kittie. She has no ego, yet learning these words makes her so happy. They help her become more independent and differentiate between herself and others. She is also learning to become the cause of events. She can spill water, drop food, break toys, pull me by the finger and take me where she wants. This is the formation of her ego and identity. But unlike Santa, no one is telling her she has a separate self, she is learning it to survive. But like now, I have to say, "no, that's not yours,". We are doing that here on this site. We are looking at the things that are not ours. Things we can not have ownership of. We don't worry about defining words like apple, or banana, they don't cause undue suffering or delusion. In that sense, I/me label is special.

But from the perspective of proper understanding, those labels are not special. They are no more significant than "car" for instance. A useful label.

[buddhawarrior]

More thoughts. all thoughts. leads no where. Go back to breath. go back to mantra.

You don't have to try to get into a specific state. We are talking ordinary everyday experience here. Mental chatter is as good as feelings of stillness. Both are happening to ... Are they happening to someone?

I think I have to explain my mental chatter. I have a condition that the medical people call attention deficit disorder. All that means to me is that I have a personality type. I fall into a spectrum, I fit on a bell curve graph. But how it shows up in my head is that I have a lot of chatter. More so than my wife. We've talked about his and for her , in her mind, there's usually only one or two voices. But for me, there are more than a dozen. They are all screaming loudly, asking to be heard. Maybe that's why I use mantra. It's just a crutch. Something to hold onto, so I don't get into trouble.

I know the question that follows will be, " who is this I?"

But I'm only talking in the most practical sense. This is what I do to cope with my self. Not any special state.

[Ilona]

Dear buddhawarior.

What is the content of your mental chatter? Are the conversations about me, I, past, future? Don't write the content here, but have a look and tell me, what is the core of the chats.

So you say that thought I is special. Hm. Can you define it's specialness? What makes it a different thought from others and how do you know that.

Ingen is on holiday now, she will answer you when she's back. :)

[buddhawarrior]

What is the content of your mental chatter? Are the conversations about me, I, past, future? Don't write the content here, but have a look and tell me, what is the core of the chats.

I think I laid this all out in a previous post. There was a whole post, I think page 4, where I just tracked my thoughts. There was another previous post where I laid out my mental chatter, and I think that's when some people got offended.

There is no core, the content is garbage, junk, of no real value. What it looks and feels like to me is this - you know those paper shreding companies that have large trucks? They shred papers for financial and law firms and they drive them around in a truck to dump or incinerate, My mental chatter feels like the inside of one of those trucks. thoughts, all shredded up on little slivers of paper, all crumbled together. I can take those slivers out and read one, but it's just thought.

Sometimes, there are particular thoughts that I "falsely" identify as "me", or past, or future, etc. And I've learned over time to see it when it happens. Sometimes external help, like this site, or good friends help me see the mis-identification. Some of the common ones I identify with are ones like, artist, father, honest, smart, knowledgable, chinese, spiritual, weirdo, strange, ADHD, Leo astrological sign, etc.

Can you define it's specialness? What makes it a different thought from others and how do you know that.

Let's say I cut into an apple. No one cries. No one rushes the apple to an emergency room. But If I cut myself, a very different set of circumstances follow. If I lose MY phone, I have a whole bunch of thoughts which drives a set of actions, but if you told me you lost YOUR phone, I may empathize, but really I just shrug my shoulders and tell you, "good luck." In this way we are distinct from everything else in the world. If the atmosphere filling with carbon and sea creatures dying had the same effect as me cutting my finger, I probably would not drive a car. But it doesn't. Not in the NORMAL sense, not in the everyday sense.

However, if we are looking at thoughts in a atomic level, than "I/Me/my" is not special. Just another thought.

Another way I look at it is this. You are you, I am me. We have similarities, and differences. I am special, so are you, however, we are but 2 people in a world of 6,840,507,000 people. We are not so special from that perspective.

I suppose I'm answering this question from multiple perspectives. I'm sure your hoping for personal experience, which was my daughter's example. She is learning to use the label of Me and My and loving it. It is giving her a new freedom not experienced before.

Now I'm not sure where these questions are going, but I feel like I've been writing the same thing over and over again. Are we getting any where? Are there people still doubting me? Are there going to be more of the same questions? I'm just looking for a status update. Are my answers helping anyone? The whole 1 - 2 posts a day is getting to me. I'm just confused about why we're still doing the one-on-one. Are you looking for something in particular. Can I get a status update? a score sheet? I think this is one of the longest threads on this forum. Am I suppose to have an A-Ha moment here? Are you trying to tease out of me the the experience of no-self?

I think that these questions are suppose to test and see if I've gone through the gate and if I'm qualified to lead others. Well? Am I? Do I pass?

I hope you understand my point. I'm not trying to be hostel or boastful. I'm just thinking to myself, I have a lot of other responsibilities, and maybe this site is not right for me. There are certainly other ways for me to be of service. If this test goes on much longer, I would like to respectfully sign off. But if you feel like I can be of service here, then please let me do that. Or if we are waiting for Ingen's approval, then let me know and I'll go and do something else for a few weeks until then.

I sincerely thank everyone who has participated in this chat, and I do have an agenda, that is to help others through the gate, so let me know what you (ingen, no-one, pratitya, ilona, etc) think.

[Ilona]

Ok, buddhawarrior, the test is over :) thank you for participating and answering all those questions. I'm really happy to welcome you :) please join our facebook group as well.

[buddhawarrior]

Thank you all for the questions. See you on the other side.