Living in the now

[JonathanR]

Hello Diane,

Yes,yes, exactly Jon, when there is hearing of sounds, there is nothing else but the awareness of sound, and can be said both happening at the same time, but really there is only the awareness of sound.

Yes, yes, also, exactly what was happening with the thoughts - working overtime trying to pigeonhole the unpigeonable.

Excellent work again!

So you are saying that in this immediate experience of hearing there is only the hearing. Am I right?

But that some thoughts also appear that may be about 'hearing' (or about almost anything) and these thoughts are not the immediate sensation of hearing but are a kind of commentary that is extra to it, added on to the hearing? Does this make sense?

love

Jon

[Jobie]

Hi Jon

Yes, in the immediate experience of hearing there is only (the awareness of) hearing. No thoughts about the hearing experience. Yes, then a story, or added commentary can be made up about the hearing experience. I don't like that noise so loud. What a strange sound. Actually, thoughts/thinking is happening now as trying to come up with examples of a story about an experience which has passed and not in the now experience. Hearing can only take place in the now moment.

Would you elaborate on the statement "immediate SENSATION of hearing".

Thanks Jon

Love

Diane

[JonathanR]

Hi Diane,

Yes, in the immediate experience of hearing there is only (the awareness of) hearing. No thoughts about the hearing experience.

Good

Yes, then a story, or added commentary can be made up about the hearing experience. I don't like that noise so loud. What a strange sound. Actually, thoughts/thinking is happening now as trying to come up with examples of a story about an experience which has passed and not in the now experience. Hearing can only take place in the now moment.

Right. Very good. When you say that the added commentary 'can be made up', is the experience that these thoughts seem to just appear or that there is a maker-upper of thoughts to be found? Once again, check with the actual experience.

Would you elaborate on the statement "immediate SENSATION of hearing".

This was to point towards an experience of actual hearing, here and now. I used the word 'sensation' to underscore the nature of this being a real experience rather than imagined, remembered, or thinking ABOUT it. Does that make sense?


love

Jon

[Jobie]

Hi Jon

When I first read your question "was there a maker-upper of the commentary thoughts" there was a thought that this was going to be a difficult thing to answer. Walking along the beach today at Rustington, I stopped to listen to the sound of the waves and take in the sunshine, and a comment was made that this experience was just so beautiful. Yes, the thoughts did just appear, they were seen in awareness and there was only a feeling of beingness in this body, no entity or maker-upper of the thought.

I suppose I am recognising there is no "I" running Diane, everything, even the thoughts are just happening with no "I" entity. Thoughts do not belong to anything, they are just thoughts that happen to be passing through, no attachment to anything, just floating by and are gone forever. No ownership, belonging to etc etc.

Love
Diane

[Jobie]

PS

Yes understand your explanation why you used the word SENSATION to differentiate between an actual now experience, can you say using the senses, and not a memory, imagined or thought.

D

[JonathanR]

Hi Diane,

When I first read your question "was there a maker-upper of the commentary thoughts" there was a thought that this was going to be a difficult thing to answer. Walking along the beach today at Rustington, I stopped to listen to the sound of the waves and take in the sunshine, and a comment was made that this experience was just so beautiful. Yes, the thoughts did just appear

Good to notice.

Yes, the thoughts did just appear, they were seen in awareness and there was only a feeling of beingness in this body, no entity or maker-upper of the thought.

Excellent I know exactly what you mean when you say 'thoughts were seen in awareness'. But this is an interesting idea isn't it, that awareness is supposed to be something that things or events happen 'in'? I wonder if language complicates things sometimes? what do you think? Couldn't one also quite truthfully say just that 'thoughts are seen', or 'noticed'?

Without attacking 'awareness' in any way, let's look at what is meant by the word. Take a red cup, for example. What is it that is actually seen/experienced as we look at this? It's the red colour, isn't it? Redness. Now, is the seeing of the redness an experience that appears to be mediated by something, or is it just what's happening here and now, including the noticing of it? In other words, is the whole experience 'redness' found to be happening 'in' something, or simply happening? take a look. Is the awareness a kind of container that things happen inside or is awareness absolutely inseparable from both observer and observed?

I suppose I am recognising there is no "I" running Diane, everything, even the thoughts are just happening with no "I" entity. Thoughts do not belong to anything, they are just thoughts that happen to be passing through, no attachment to anything, just floating by and are gone forever. No ownership, belonging to etc etc.

Brilliant!


love

Jon

[Jobie]

Morning Jon

Thank you Jon for your post. I really appreciate the time and input you are giving.

As soon as I read what I had written "thoughts were seen IN awareness, I realised thoughts cannot be seen IN awareness. Awareness is not a container as you say. I guess it is language complicating the simple and the mind wanting to label. As you say thoughts were just seen. But could I say that thoughts were seen BY awareness, if that is how it is? I recognise now that mind is here wanting the clarification!!!!

But keeping the seeing simple, thoughts are JUST SEEN, and mind is wanting clarification IN WHAT!! There is no "in what".

It has taken some looking to understand the difference between the "observer and the observed". Yes, but of course, they are one and the same. The observer and the observed are both coming from the same place. Finding this difficult to express.

That that is observing the seeing is the same as that that observed the seeing. One and the same.

[JonathanR]

Hello Diane

But could I say that thoughts were seen BY awareness,

Well, Is there an experience of an awareness that is separate from the thoughts that are seen?

How far separate is awareness from the thoughts that are noticed?

Does it seem that thoughts and the seeing of them appear simultaneously?


lots of love

Jon

[Jobie]

Hi Jon

Been delaying this reply as again not clear what is happening in the experience. "Is there an experience of an awareness that is separate from the thoughts that are seen?" There is no experience of an awareness doing the seeing. Thoughts are just seen.

"How far separate is awareness from the thoughts that are noticed." There is no separation between the awareness and the thoughts.

Yes, the thoughts and the seeing of them appear simultaneously. If they didn't appear simultaneously, then what was not seen would not be in the now experience, so to be in the now experience they have to appear simultaneously, so they must be one and the same. Thoughts are seen in the experience of awareness. Not really sure what this means or if this is a true understanding.

I'm having a quiet Xmas away from family as they are sick with the flu. So happy to continue with this investigation if you have the time too. The decision is yours of course.

Have a great day tomorrow.

Love

Diane

Ps hesitating about submitting this response!

[Jobie]

Ps
Just having this seeing or thought:-

Awareness is not a thing, it just is. So a thought seen, is just seen, and there is an awareness of the seeing, a hearing. An experience that is just being seen.

Am I making this more complicated than it really is? I truly want to see this and understand it. Thoughts!!

Love

Diane

[JonathanR]

Hi Diane,

Thanks for your post. I am tangled up in Christmas celebrations at the moment but will reply later today.

Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Diane,

A lull in the festivities...

Been delaying this reply as again not clear what is happening in the experience. "Is there an experience of an awareness that is separate from the thoughts that are seen?" There is no experience of an awareness doing the seeing. Thoughts are just seen.

Well, that's how it seems here too.

"How far separate is awareness from the thoughts that are noticed." There is no separation between the awareness and the thoughts.

Yes. I can't find a separation between these either.

Yes, the thoughts and the seeing of them appear simultaneously. If they didn't appear simultaneously, then what was not seen would not be in the now experience, so to be in the now experience they have to appear simultaneously, so they must be one and the same. Thoughts are seen in the experience of awareness. Not really sure what this means or if this is a true understanding.

If you are not sure I would advise that you check with experience since this checking or looking is the quickest way to become clear Thoughts can be noticed appearing, can't they? And it becomes clear that the noticing of them happens in the same moment. Do you find that the same is true for sensation?

Awareness is not a thing, it just is. So a thought seen, is just seen, and there is an awareness of the seeing, a hearing. An experience that is just being seen.

Yes.. explore this, is anything found that is observing from an 'outside'? (outside of the immediate experience).

This goes for all sensations too, not just thoughts.

lots of love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Diane

Please don't think that you need to wait until the Christmas season is over to post. If you are happy to continue with our conversation there's no need to wait. I'll be very pleased to hear how it's going :-)


love

Jon

[Jobie]

Hello Jon

Just realised why there is only the now in which life happens. Anything said or seen that happenied in past or what might happen or be said in future is thoughts, memory a story. Life/experiences can only happen in the NOW even the seeing of thoughts. This is a big realisation for me. How could there not be this understanding before! Weird!

Same is true for sensations as thought. Seeing of sensation and sensations happen in the same moment.

Nothing is found that is observing from an "outside" of the immediate experience and awareness is Observing and experiencing all.

So outside and inside are the same as we said that the observed and the observing are one. So, everything seems to be awareness, seeing, observing, within itself. I'm deleting within, as awareness is not a container, as we've and saying "awareness is seeing and observing itself". All is awareness, all is one.

I lost the original draft so had to start again. I didn't reply yesterday Jon, as felt tired and this seeing and experience wasn't clear. Thank you for your note.

Love
Diane

[JonathanR]

Hello Diane,

Just realised why there is only the now in which life happens. Anything said or seen that happenied in past or what might happen or be said in future is thoughts, memory a story. Life/experiences can only happen in the NOW even the seeing of thoughts. This is a big realisation for me. How could there not be this understanding before! Weird!

This is great. Did something specific happen to make you realise this?

Same is true for sensations as thought. Seeing of sensation and sensations happen in the same moment.

Perfect :-)

So outside and inside are the same as we said that the observed and the observing are one. So, everything seems to be awareness, seeing, observing, within itself. I'm deleting within, as awareness is not a container, as we've and saying "awareness is seeing and observing itself". All is awareness, all is one.

There doesn't seem to be a split found between an observer and an observed anywhere in immediate experience except in ... thoughts, does there? Thoughts also appear as part of experience. It's only the content of thoughts, what thoughts 'say' the story about a self, that is not really happening or appearing.

You seem to have had a clear realisation. That's great Diane. What do you feel about 'free will', 'intention', 'choice' and 'decisions'? Do you choose, decide and so on, or is something else going on?

best wishes,

Jon