Liberation vs neuroscience.

[Pratityasamutpada]

There are habitually recurring thoughts which, if you buy into them, are believed to actually do something, like defend something, claim something, etc. That's what gives you the sense of ego swelling up, or being stuck. It feels solid and real because your body tenses up in various places at the same time. But of course a thought can't do anything other than float by. It's ephemeral, it has no power of its own. It's not even a cloud, a cloud can rain. When a thought dissolves, it leaves no trace.

All those thoughts and sensations are as reactions to eachother, reinforcing eachother, seemingly tangling up, seemingly giving rise to something palpable. But they're actually just experiences happening. There's no tangling up, there's no getting stuck, etc. Only the appearance of that, when you're not paying attention. Even when paying attention, those experiences will continue to happen, that's the habit.

So find out if this is true in your experience, or if it's nonsense, or if you can improve on the above description, or whatever. When you feel the ego swelling, pay attention to the thoughts and feelings, what is there swelling? Swelling how? When you feel stuck, pay attention to the thoughts and feelings, who or what is stuck? Stuck how? When it feels like something needs a lot of effort, or frustration or resistance arises for whatever reason, pay attention to the thoughts and feelings.

You get the idea. Take your time. Do it all day long. Don't try to force something, just whenever you run into something, as often as you can, take a few moments to observe what is actually going on.

[mark_tywharton]

I introduced myself in Home, so I am going to post

as far as I can tell thoughts arise out of cause, effect and habit

the notion there is a ME controlling these thoughts is kind of ridiculous

before there was any language, or reasoning, perhaps when I was very little there was an observation of life and living or what was happening and all that is

the reference point "I" came much later

before a notion of a ME having thoughts, there was still thinking

there were thoughts happening as a function of the conditioning of the subset of atoms called Mark

the person they now apparently belong to is created by the thoughts

the thoughts THINK me (using THINK as a verb)

without thought obviously the cluster of atoms would still exist, it would just have a different reference point

nobody is saying YOU do not exist they are saying the "I" does not exist

it may help to think that the world is full of reference points that do not really exist

like 01:19:34 on a Sunday morning

obviously a moment in time, a frame of reference

just as obviously simply what was happening

or the equator, take me to the equator and show me equator

it is all a mental construct

human beings like to attribute meaning and "I" is simply a meaning and not a thing

Mark

[mark_tywharton]

Ah

Sorry that was a 5 page thread and quite arrogantly I simply answered the first post

Perhaps I better do some reading :-)

[Pratityasamutpada]

Hi Mark, welcome to Liberation Nation.

When you're ready to engage and get liberated, feel free to start your own thread or reply to any of the open invitations in the one-on-one section. This forum is meant only for that, it's not meant to be a discussion board. Please don't interrupt ongoing threads.

Cheers and good luck :)

[Pratityasamutpada]

Buddhawarrior, how's it going mate?

[mark_tywharton]

Hi Mark, welcome to Liberation Nation.

When you're ready to engage and get liberated, feel free to start your own thread or reply to any of the open invitations in the one-on-one section. This forum is meant only for that, it's not meant to be a discussion board. Please don't interrupt ongoing threads.

Cheers and good luck :)

Apologies, thank you

[buddhawarrior]

Yes, Pratitya. I agree with the practice and do it whenever I can, as much as I can, I appreciate the recommendation and reminder.

I agree with everything you say. It reflects my own experience of it.

When you feel the ego swelling, pay attention to the thoughts and feelings, what is there swelling? Swelling how? When you feel stuck, pay attention to the thoughts and feelings, who or what is stuck? Stuck how? When it feels like something needs a lot of effort, or frustration or resistance arises for whatever reason, pay attention to the thoughts and feelings.

The swelling of ego feels like fight and flight. Either run away, or fight. I can feel the adrenaline, the quickening of breath and rising of my heart beat. Then I look at the part of me that is offended, and I see that it is just a thought, and when I can identify it as a thought I realize that thoughts can not be defended, can not be hurt and can not fight. I see how getting stuck on a thought can cause all sorts of suffering to arise, even cause physical symptoms. It is only when I identify which thought is stuck, which thought I am identifying with as "self" can I then realize the illusion. Even the desire to teach or to help is part of the ego. It is nothing more than a thought, part of a long string of thoughts, cause and effect, there is nothing to teach, nothing to help, all is perfect and part of nature. My participation is part of nature, natural progression, no identifiable free will. If I'm helpful, it is part of nature, not because of my ego. If I teach, it is part of the natural progression of things, not that I had some special knowledge that was originally conceived. If I am happy to have been helpful that is also a part of nature.

[buddhawarrior]

Tossing a few more mind rants.

This site has brought up a lot of sticking points, and I am overjoyed at that fact, even thought going thru it seems like frustrating work.

There is a part of me that really does not like to be challenged by others, and fears failure at proving myself. I get intense stage fright often choke up, and end up "failing." This site is testing me. And I see my ego swell and puff up. I see my thoughts bounce between fighting and flighting. One side says, "screw these guys, they don't know what they are missing." The other side says, "what do they know, I can test them too, I can beat them at their own game."

Well, I see that those thoughts are a way to protect the part of me that claims identity with being the enlightened teacher. Which is just another thought. It is not me. There might be past times where that thought and ego identification was strengthened through small successes in helping others, but that's just nature, that was natural events unfolding. I am not the thoughts or the ego.

There is another part of me that I identify with, the Knower. I was that kid in class that knew everything. I loved raising my hand and having the answer. I fancied myself smart. So when someone suggests a practice I already know, or a path I've already taken, my ego again puffs up and wants to protect the tightly held identity. My thoughts are, "I've already done this, I'm way ahead, I'm further along, I know more, I already know this. They have no right in telling me this. I am superior." These thoughts I've learned to hide in polite society, but of course will never stop coming. But the process of direct pointing has shown me these thoughts of grandeur are not me. I need not be ashamed of them, nor identify with them, they are not reality, not correct. I am not better, nor am I worst. I simply am.

There is a part of me that is impatient. asking, "how long does this process of testing take? how many people are reading? why haven't I leveled up." but that's silly too. an extension of the previous two thought streams. Protecting and strengthening the ego of knower and enlightened master.


here's a fun story of synchronicity that happened over the course of the last month.

I was at a natural hot springs about a month ago. Someone left a book on a bench. It's a book I know and love but do not currently own. It is my favorite translation of the Tao Te Ching translated by Stephan Mitchel. A desire rushed over me. I questioned, did someone forget it? Are they coming back to get it? I left it for most of the day, but by late afternoon, no one has come to claim it. I thought, well, maybe it was left for me? I waited some more, and finally by night, I said, well, no one has claimed it. I might as well take it. So I did, with a twinge of guilt. I read it over the weekend and just loved it.

fast forward a month. I have been on this site going back and forth and getting clearer about my mis-identification and reading the other liberation journeys, and at the same time, going through my own forum thread, getting my ego handed back to me on a platter. It was at this time, a dear friend of mine, whom I've known for over ten years but have not spoken to in 4 years called me. Said he's in bad shape and wanted to talk. I thought great. Time to put some of what I learned to the test.

We talked for 4 hours. He was feeling really down about himself. His girl friend has been cheating on him, he lost his job. His business ventures have all failed financially, on top of all of it, his MS is starting to be symptomatic, blurry vision and leg twitch. It was all too much. During the first part of our talk, I mostly listened. And after he pretty well spilled his guts, we started talking about identity. I asked him, "who is hurt? where is the self? etc, etc." He answered with full honesty. He really opened up his believes. He came to his own answers, with a little guiding towards no-self. But he had doubts. we talked about the doubts and clarified some misunderstandings. It was a heart felt conversation. I was physically vibrating intensely the whole time, as if I was really cold, which I always do when the conversation is REAL and deeply connected to truth. It's my indicator that we are touching on something real.

by the end of the conversation, he was in much better shape, the dis-identification of ego had a dramatically noticeable effect and the cloud hanging over him was lifted. We hugged and said our goodbyes, and as he walked out the door he said, "do you have a book?" I thought, huh? a book? He said, "yea, a book that you'd recommend?" I said, "yeah, there's tons of books, tons and tons. But... well... let me think on it..." I wanted to give him something that will meet him where he is. That's when I remembered, OH YES, the Tao Te Ching, and WAIT, I have a copy to give you!

Why did I feel guilt for taking the book in the first place? Why did I get all frustrated and angry at the test this site was giving me? It was all a part of the natural unfolding of events, all a part of the Tao.

[Pratityasamutpada]

What is ego?

[buddhawarrior]

What is ego?

Ego is the false illusion of self. To see past ego is to see reality as it really is. Ego is is created by the accumulation of sense and thought memories. The ego itself is a thought. Created out of social training. The ego is a very useful evolutionary trait. It allows differentiation, identification, self preservation, division of labor, novelty. But as ego grows, so does the amount of suffering. When someone comes up to me and says "you are artsy" I think to myself, that is a truism about me, and it is included into the ego. And next time someone needs someone artsy, they could ask for me.

The problem arises when someone challenges the ego. Someone comes and says, "you are not artsy." I think, "what do they know, I am artsy and screw you. " Or when someone does need an artist and they call me, I get nervous because I don't have the confidence I can do it because in fact I haven't. I only thought I was artsy because others told me so. Not thru direct experience, trials and errors. In this way, the ego causes suffering. To say suffering is not totally correct either. Suffering refers to any time spent outside of union with the Divine. Suffering is anytime we are noting seeing reality as it is. Union with the Divine means the complete loss of ego, even for a few seconds. Union with the divine is just like everyday life, but without the false identification with one's ego.

The ego is a tool, it's the only tool that can liberate but one can not be liberated with it.

[Pratityasamutpada]

Ok, remember when I said none of this is about knowledge, theory, philosophy, etc? Did you see what you were doing in your last post?

Nonetheless, here's a question about what you think: What do you expect liberation to be? In what ways do you expect it to be different from not being liberated (in the sense that this word is used on this site)?

And now, here's a question that is not about what you think: What is self? In your own words, what constitutes the experience of self at this moment? If you don't know how to answer right this moment, take your time, there's no rush. But don't look for an answer in whatever you think about it. Look for it in what you observe. Don't worry about right or wrong, just describe what you observe.

Stick with it mate. I don't doubt that you're knowledgable. But then you must know, no knowledge is required to get liberated. People who know virtually nothing can still do this. Because there is one thing that all people have in common regardless of age, background, upbringing, education, whatever. There is one thing that remains constant throughout everyone's life. Put all your knowledge aside for now, and rely on the one thing that will always be available. If you're bound and gagged and brainwashed and memory wiped, this will still be there: Observation.

[buddhawarrior]

What do you expect liberation to be? In what ways do you expect it to be different from not being liberated (in the sense that this word is used on this site)?

The reality of my life, the chores, the bills, the people I'm responsible to , work, friends, etc, that has not changed. Yet, I can say with confidence that it has changed because it all feels better. I have deeper relationships with people, I'm less stuck on myself. I'm making better friends, chasing down less bad leads (like trying to be everything to everyone). I have less to prove (even though I'm here proving I've seen the light). I did expect more from enlightenment before, I was trying to define enlightenment and so had somehow placed it up on high, perhaps it's because most everyone who talks about enlightenment had put it on high too. But I see that it's not what I thought. It's more like everyday life. Just less attached to illusion.

What is self?

My "self" is like a little boy trying to get attention, trying to get recognition, trying to be heard, loved, held, cared for, trying to be smart, better, taller, faster, stronger, trying to become something, trying to show people that I am something. Wanting to do something with this life. Trying to be good, trying to get away with being bad. My "self" wants to keep memories close, and future clearly outlined and planed. my "self" is scared and little, always afraid of dying or pain.

The reality of life is that all those things, all those little bits that the self wants, they exist. They come through my mind as thoughts. I can see them come, and I can see how I grab on and get so wrapped up in it's drama. As it I put the thought on as a costume, and behave as if the costume is "Me".

The ego self is the one trying to liberate the ego self. And I see the loop I'm in. Trying to see that the knower, the enlightened one, who has helped me along the path for so long, now that too has to go. Time to take off the costume and be naked. No more costume changes. Let me true-self, unattached to thoughts streams, be revealed.

[Ilona]

You are talking about ego, like it's an entity. Check if it's true. Can ego do anything? If so, how does it do things like try to liberate ego self?
And what is the true self that you are talking about? How about looking with fresh eyes.

[buddhawarrior]

You are talking about ego, like it's an entity. Check if it's true. Can ego do anything? If so, how does it do things like try to liberate ego self?

I'm trying to look at the ego, and it's like that little floating thing in your eye, it moves whenever i try to look at it. The ego, whether real or not can not be pinned down. at least not by me. Can the ego do anything? I don't know. it certainly seems like it can. But when I look at it, it doesn't seem to have any power. Like a dog chasing it's tail. I ask myself, "How has the ego gotten me this far?" and the question that follows is, "did the ego get me here, or was it just nature unfolding?"

When I made the statement that Ego is trying to liberate ego, I mean the paradox of it. I'm using my mind to not use my mind. Like all that philosophy and knowledge is suppose to help in some way. It doesn't. However, without it, I don't think I would be where I am today, writing on this forum.

What is the experience of THAT? The experience of ego and knowledge and so forth?

I am sitting here, trying to see an experience, and I can't find it. I am experiencing a lot of differnt things right now, noise, light, taste, smells, etc, but no ego. I have thoughts, but no ego. The ego can not liberate. The ego does not exist, it's an idea, a thought. I can't find it any where. I'm here eating, chewing having lunch, searching for ego. Nope, not there.

Part of me keeps trying to stir up doubt. Keeps trying to be right, have answers, know the truth. But as I look at those doubts, those other voices, they vanish. I don't know where the voices come from, they just come, but when the thought is of "me" being "right", then I feel a physical sensation of strength enter my physical body. This feels like ego to me because it's a thought that could push me to action, action of self-preservation, Like I'm about to do something that would be beneficial to my physical body.

[buddhawarrior]

The True Self?

Looking at this question, trying to experience it in real time. I am the only one here. Sometimes I get mad. And I don't think I should, so I'll blame it on the false self. That perhaps it is the mis-identification with the false self. But really, that's just more thoughts, isn't it. The fact of the matter is the self gets mad. That's that. No need to blame ego, or illusion, or false-identification or whatever. The self is the self. Trying to come up with an answer, I find none. I am sitting here. all is real. All thoughts, all reality, all everything. All real, all true. What is false?

A lie is false, lying, telling a lie. But the act of lying is real, part of the self. Lying is real and true. Even lying is true and real. What is false? Nothing. Everything is real and true and exists. Is this true? Yes. The truest truth.