Looking for real things

[olgad]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I read about 60% of the gateless gate crashers book, it felt very "warm" and scary to the point that I almost "get it", but this "almost" feeling and strange empty floating head feeling are fading away and i read the next story and it repeats, and i try to think about questions in the stories and my mind blocking them to some degree, so "hot" changes to warm and to cold after. and it repeats with next story. I feel like some help would be needed as all my understanding are intellectual but i have a gut feeling its what i look for.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I want to experience real understanding of no self, and not just theoretically agree and think about it. I have a feeling i am close and very far at the same time. but i want to break through. i have a intermittent feeling of everyday life being fake and want to see the truth behind it. I feel that my brain is very very strong and active and good at blocking my intentions to find the truth and i just can't stop digging at it.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
kundalini yoga and chan/zen meditation last 5 years. Some yoga and meditation attempts 30 years ago when i was a teenager, but it stopped and i only picked it up again recently. I am rather a beginner as I was very resistant to start daily practice for 3-5 years (even i had a strong urge to do it and feeling that its a good start if anything, but something blocked these attempts out very effectively and seamlessly for years) , I read many spiritual books trying to grasp the path and see how i feel it, i went into couple of meditation retreats (chan) and finally 4-5 months ago was able to start to meditate daily. So far i just can watch my thoughts arising and going away and try to not attach to them, but sometimes i am getting overrun by thoughts or emotions and it take some time to bounce back into observing, even it happens faster now. I also have a moment of strange strong realization recently that NOTHING really matters in my life - none of my emotions, doings feelings etc matters . it was like a 10 seconds "knowing it" flash - i didnt really think it - i just felt it as an insight. but it went away very soon and didnt come back yet :)

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
10

[poporo]

Hello Olgad,

My name is Paulina, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers.
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Love,
Pau

[olgad]

Hello Olgad,

My name is Paulina, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self.
Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.
Love,
Pau

Hi Paulina,
Thank you for your reply and your time!
Yes, I would like to have you as a guide, looking forward to it.
Olga

[poporo]

]Hi Paulina,
Thank you for your reply and your time!
Yes, I would like to have you as a guide, looking forward to it.
Olga

Dear Olga,

That's great news :)
Before we move any further I have some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what you already actually know, not through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. What is LOOKING?

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE), to reality, to what's happening. It is becoming aware of, and continually noticing sound, taste, smell, thought, sensation and colours/images (aka actual experience AE) to see what is really present and always has been. It’s also noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s as thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences. A thought, label or concept is never the actual experience (AE). Some thoughts point to actual experience, and some point to other thoughts aka thought stories.

First off, we are going to look at expectations. Could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Please answer the questions highlighted in blue text individually, and remember to highlight the question being answered by using the quote function.

Love,
Pau

[olgad]

How will life change?

In my understanding it will be more simple, less drama, more calmness and clarity.
I hope to find my true purpose and passion if I can strip down limitations in form of should-would-must - completely. Right now i see a lot of them but again intellectually and i can't detach from them completely - and some are holding dearly to me in form of "survival", limiting beliefs and other social fears

[olgad]

How will you change?

I would not have to search anymore, will be able to see how reality is bolted together and be able to flow in the life without usual resistance in form of expectations, less suffering, stop judging myself and others sincerely and fully, enjoy every moment more, be able to detach from drama i am implying on myself and have much more energy or clarity to find something more creative and fulfilling to do instead of worrying and fighting for improvements in all areas (self, work, family)

[olgad]

What will be different?

reaction to life experiences and events, based on a different understanding on how it all really "designed"
self-centeredness will be shifted out/detached (in my understanding)
different life priorities
different processing of incoming information based on a new insight which i hope will result in less anxiety, stress and more clarity and calmness of my brain

[olgad]

What is missing?

i still feel that "i am driving" my life on a sensory deep level, even intellectually i feel that no-self explanation explains a lot and i think its true.
i am infected by I-Virus and can't step aside and look behind it. it protects itself way too good.

[olgad]

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Help in and Method about how to obtain the real no self insight on a feel-see level and experience it (of course :).
rest - whatever it will create really - i am not attached to all my expectations i listed above too much, if they will not come as i expect. but i do have them. i just have a feeling that this no-self realization on a deepest level will shift my priorities and experiences. and i feel it is very important to see things how they really are and not live in fake drama self-stories environment.

[poporo]

Hi Olga, thank you for your answers, I will write you back later. Love, Pau

Wysłane z mojego SM-G925F przy użyciu Tapatalka

[poporo]

Hi Olga,
I deeply apologize for the delay in answer, I was moving from one place to another. So, coming back to our conversation - thank you very much for your answers! They are detailed and elaborate - they give us a strong basics for our mutual work :)

How will life change?
In my understanding it will be more simple, less drama, more calmness and clarity.
I hope to find my true purpose and passion if I can strip down limitations in form of should-would-must - completely. Right now i see a lot of them but again intellectually and i can't detach from them completely - and some are holding dearly to me in form of "survival", limiting beliefs and other social fears.

I would like you to make an excercise :) Can you write down one should, one would and one must completely? Once you write those three down, look at what are they based on, what type of sensations arise when you read "I would", "I should", and "I must". Do you feel tension in any particular areas of the body? Are those sensations the "self"??
Please do this excercise and share with me the results :)

How will you change?
I would not have to search anymore, will be able to see how reality is bolted together and be able to flow in the life without usual resistance in form of expectations, less suffering, stop judging myself and others sincerely and fully, enjoy every moment more, be able to detach from drama i am implying on myself and have much more energy or clarity to find something more creative and fulfilling to do instead of worrying and fighting for improvements in all areas (self, work, family)

Ok then, what is searching? In direct experience, can you find "the searcher"?
What are the expectations in direct experience?

What will be different?
reaction to life experiences and events, based on a different understanding on how it all really "designed"
self-centeredness will be shifted out/detached (in my understanding)
different life priorities

What are life priorities? Can you examine them in direct experience?

different processing of incoming information based on a new insight which i hope will result in less anxiety, stress and more clarity and calmness of my brain

As far as I understand, you are hoping for relieving tension in the body and mind. Are you able to find the root cause of the tensions? I mean the common denominator for anxiety, stress and lack of calmness?

What is missing?
i still feel that "i am driving" my life on a sensory deep level, even intellectually i feel that no-self explanation explains a lot and i think its true.

Ok, let's focus on the "I am driving my life on a sensory deep level". Can you please explain this sensory deep level of the "I" experience?
i am infected by I-Virus and can't step aside and look behind it. it protects itself way too good.

Ok, great reference, the "I-Virus" :) also, you don't have to look behind it, if it had "a behind" it would mean it is real ;)

Can you look at the "I" without the attempts to look through it? How does it look like? Where is it? Does it have a color, texture, smell?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
rest - whatever it will create really - i am not attached to all my expectations i listed above too much, if they will not come as i expect. but i do have them. i just have a feeling that this no-self realization on a deepest level will shift my priorities and experiences. and i feel it is very important to see things how they really are and not live in fake drama self-stories environment.

Great to hear the self-stories part :) we're on the good way!

Love,
Pau

[olgad]

Hi Pau, we all have our life events/things to attend. no worries at all. I know you will be back eventually :)
this one is a long one - i ranted a lot about all my problems and though. ps after rereading this whole post i feel I look like a total nervous wreck .... i guess i am doing worse than i tried to pretend :)
I have a problem formed in my life over last few months (culminated in last few months - formed much longer before i guess). Most of my thoughts are running in circles around it and I feel i have to explain it.
my profession (until recently) was a web developer/computer programmer. It started little over 20 years ago kind of spontaneously and naturally .... I had a solid technical education and it was relatively easy and fun to get into programming , i self learned it without big problems and keep progressing, it became my career and i liked it a lot and I was successful. i had pretty good self-esteem and i was well liked everywhere i worked.
one of my last jobs - 2007-2015 was a career change to some degree - i moved there for pure "security" and money reasons. I chose a pretty narrow "corporate world need" direction and I got in and I was VERY safe and very well paid but I slowly grew VERY UNHAPPY there. It was comfortable quicksand. It was boring, i realized that i do not like doing it at all and also I am behind all new technologies in other areas and worst - it seems i can't really make myself motivated to learn anymore. it took me a lot of courage but i jumped off this safe place and tried to get into something i forgot and liked before. But my next job was a nightmare environment and I (and many others) jumped out of it again - and next place wasn't good as well and on a top of it they let me go very soon. And that was it. I can't find new job since and after 6 months of loosing confidence and despair I JUST suddenly realized that i think i don't want to do programming any more deep deep inside me and i was rejecting even think about it for 6 months as a total insane thought and it just finally surfaced. and i am REALLY stuck as i don't know what else to do to make a living. I am financially ok for at least another half a year so its not an immediate crisis, but my brain is running in wild circles and can't come up with anything sustainable and i can't shut it down as it "screams murder" about surviving and money and security and its hard to ignore it. comparing to how i would handle it 5 years ago - i am now not too bad at all, but i have moments when i just want to cry in self pity and hope for some magical thing to happen and i will at least find something i LOVE to do. anything i think about - get reaction like YES, but.... I would like to say that I started to search way BEFORE it all happened. This crisis is NOT the reason i am searching, but this thing makes it very intense and hard to ignore. if you think i have to fix my problems first and can't work on our process in this state - please let me know, i don't want to waste your time even i do want to find my answers even more than before. :) trying to be as honest as i can do at my current level of understanding :)
-----------------

I would like you to make an excercise :) Can you write down one should, one would and one must completely? Once you write those three down, look at what are they based on, what type of sensations arise when you read "I would", "I should", and "I must". Do you feel tension in any particular areas of the body? Are those sensations the "self"??
Please do this excercise and share with me the results :)

I Should - I should be able to learn new skills and find a new well paying and rewarding job and be safe again, i am totally capable of learning if i only try harder. ;)))))
I Would - I would be OK if only i figure out what else i can do and what i would Love to do even if it will barely provide for my living expenses, and happiness would be more important than a lot of money.
I Must - I MUST find a meaningful, real passion, life purpose work as a way to make a living without should and woulds and compromises - figure out what i really like which i dont know yet, and better do it sooner then later!

when i read my SHOULD i feel anxiety - solar plexus and chest tension, i am suppressing my rejection of this when i try to think this way , as this particular "should" goes against what i just realized - i don't really want to continue my previous career, but my brain is totally not letting it go as NOTHING will make money similar to what i was making after 20 years. plus to send so many years of training and accumulated knowledge down the drain? my brain is gripping very hard to not let it go and still saving a hope somewhere deep inside that may be it will change and everything will be ok as before :) I do feel that my logical brain/head is my sense of me in this case. my common sense and analytical machine that trying to find solutions for my suitability and comfortable existence. it cares and trying to solve it the way it can... and i am not very happy with these attempts now.

when i read my WOULD i feel uncertainty and little hope. still solar plexus/low chest tension feeling, but less. I feel it is still based on fear of survival (money) and connected fear of death. i hope i can escape them and find what i like that will work out but i don't see how it can happen so i continue to worry and pressure myself to think about other solutions. (so its "me worrying" pressuring "me analyzing center" to make sure me-body and mind as entity is well cared for and not at crisis because of my own wants and needs and actions. Would is MORE felt in the chest area if it is important.

the Must i reject the most even i put a message i feel is better solution in there - i just dont like to be told what to do in MUST form by anybody, and when i do it to myself and its logical and makes sense its the worst. I feel that I want to reject MUST message but i can't do just nothing as it is illogical :)))). I HAVE to (must) do something, and i feel like i am running in circles in my head and its tension on my neck and shoulders and chest and solar plexus - all at once... and hopeless feeling that i don't see exit after so many attempts (increasing tension in the head) so i will not be able to find it no matter how long i will torture myself. (overall i always had tense neck but last few months i got into worst shape - its painful tight, and i do yoga, try to relax it during meditation directed, and stretching and try to self massage but it is not loosening.) And even i have a feeling that if i will let it all go and start to try things and something WILL happen and no real tragedy will be as output and may be benefit and i just gonna do it even if i worry - whatever i feel as my central brain command center is not letting it grip and disregards my other understanding as childish and saying its nonsense to try NOT to act on a problem.
i am perfectly torturing my body with my own brain. sad ! :)
----------------

Ok then, what is searching? In direct experience, can you find "the searcher"?
What are the expectations in direct experience?

searching is trying to find a way to achieve something :) I can't really find the searcher, as i assume its ME (whoever exist in my head/brain/ behind my eyes - and whoever POINTs intentions into actions. as for direct experience expectation - i described in my introduction i had certain short but vivid experience or mini-insight i felt in the middle of being desperate and crying hard few weeks ago - I FELT it - i didn't THINK it. it was few seconds of REAL feeling in my whole body and brain like an "understanding wave" came over me and i got immersed into it. i knew that my whole life and and especially what i worry about do not matter on a global scale, it was shocking and rather non-digestible for my inflated ego ... but i felt it and it went away and my brain took over and dismissed it as being emotional and blah.
I guess i expect some gut KNEW feeling again similar to this one or at least do some progress in getting closer to it and get better in observing and detaching from its drama. anything helps :)
----------------

What are life priorities? Can you examine them in direct experience?

i am not sure how to examine life priorities in a direct experience. they more intellectual when i think about it but i will try. i guess i want to feel happy and involved by doing something meaningful that helps others or earth, i want to feel in a "flow" or "zone" while doing something i like and living full. to feel happy, relaxed, strong, powerful, helping, mighty, healing, supporting, involved. i just tried to list all that came to mind
----------------

As far as I understand, you are hoping for relieving tension in the body and mind. Are you able to find the root cause of the tensions? I mean the common denominator for anxiety, stress and lack of calmness?

how interesting - this question pretty much SUMMARIZED everything i described on this page before. wow.
my inability to let go of worries i think comes from the belief that i have to act and do something about my life and responsible for it, i have to be in control, otherwise it all will fall apart and i will die. (bare bones )
and i only came little closer to be able to see what i am doing to myself while i think like that, and i feel its self destructive and not a way to go, but i can't just let it go. i am stripping it as much as i can. but i feel i am going in a good direction.
----------------

Ok, let's focus on the "I am driving my life on a sensory deep level". Can you please explain this sensory deep level of the "I" experience?

my me-sense is somewhere in my head - center. or even more on a back part of the skull in a form of tension,
when i start to actively thinking and point my intention to some problems i sensed it back there. almost like looking back at the inside of my skull there while really looking forward with my real eyes.
i also finally learned how to relax my head and brain and experience it from time to time during meditations and this feeling is incredibly good. some kind of brain hollowness and head "expansion" like a balloon feelings i didn't experience before. just feels better comparing to my normal mode but i can't sustain it for a long.
back to me - seems it is an OCD infected combination of control freak and mighty computer center, analyzing world and people patterns and situations and making sure i navigate them in a best possible way and to my benefit (survival again). when i started to meditate i caught myself many times in the future worries (i dont dwell in the past -i constantly make plans, trying to be efficient, making dialogs with other people in my mind for mostly work situations, playing them over and over to see how better to present myself or not to hurt somebody's feelings but bring my point across etc
(yes i used to be a people pleaser at its best too - but i think i am making progress in working on it)
----------------

Can you look at the "I" without the attempts to look through it? How does it look like? Where is it? Does it have a color, texture, smell?

it feels in the back of my head - skull and brain attention focus feeling. Also i just tried to sense it again - i think heart center involved too. i feel these 2 centers when i think about me - chest and head. But i am not sure if its more intellectual as i read a lot about heart center in yoga.
does not have smell or color. Even when i meditate i sometimes see colors. some weird splashes and pulsating swirls (circles moving away from me like i see inside of some large blood vessel) and its mainly purple color on a black background, but these colors don't have feeling of being me. they feels external to me. something i see "in front of my eyes".
----------------

[poporo]

Hi Olga,
thank you for your reply! Indeed, a long one, let's take a look :)

this one is a long one - i ranted a lot about all my problems and though. ps after rereading this whole post i feel I look like a total nervous wreck .... i guess i am doing worse than i tried to pretend :)

It's ok, please don't judge yourself, thank you for sharing your story.

I have a problem formed in my life over last few months (culminated in last few months - formed much longer before i guess). Most of my thoughts are running in circles around it and I feel i have to explain it.
my profession (until recently) was a web developer/computer programmer. It started little over 20 years ago kind of spontaneously and naturally .... I had a solid technical education and it was relatively easy and fun to get into programming , i self learned it without big problems and keep progressing, it became my career and i liked it a lot and I was successful. i had pretty good self-esteem and i was well liked everywhere i worked.
one of my last jobs - 2007-2015 was a career change to some degree - i moved there for pure "security" and money reasons. I chose a pretty narrow "corporate world need" direction and I got in and I was VERY safe and very well paid but I slowly grew VERY UNHAPPY there. It was comfortable quicksand. It was boring, i realized that i do not like doing it at all and also I am behind all new technologies in other areas and worst - it seems i can't really make myself motivated to learn anymore. it took me a lot of courage but i jumped off this safe place and tried to get into something i forgot and liked before. But my next job was a nightmare environment and I (and many others) jumped out of it again - and next place wasn't good as well and on a top of it they let me go very soon. And that was it. I can't find new job since and after 6 months of loosing confidence and despair I JUST suddenly realized that i think i don't want to do programming any more deep deep inside me and i was rejecting even think about it for 6 months as a total insane thought and it just finally surfaced. and i am REALLY stuck as i don't know what else to do to make a living. I am financially ok for at least another half a year so its not an immediate crisis, but my brain is running in wild circles and can't come up with anything sustainable and i can't shut it down as it "screams murder" about surviving and money and security and its hard to ignore it. comparing to how i would handle it 5 years ago - i am now not too bad at all, but i have moments when i just want to cry in self pity and hope for some magical thing to happen and i will at least find something i LOVE to do. anything i think about - get reaction like YES, but.... I would like to say that I started to search way BEFORE it all happened. This crisis is NOT the reason i am searching, but this thing makes it very intense and hard to ignore. if you think i have to fix my problems first and can't work on our process in this state - please let me know, i don't want to waste your time even i do want to find my answers even more than before. :) trying to be as honest as i can do at my current level of understanding :)

I can relate to your story. I understand the struggle and feeling of being stuck.
Well, in my opinion it depends on how strong current emotions are and how are you holding up on that wave of "survival mode". If you feel you are able to put your current proffesional and financial situation at the side for the sake of this process - then I don't see any precautions on why we shouldn't continue. It is very important for you to know, that it is not a unleashing your potential and find all the answers process. It is about seeing the truth, about seeing reality as it is.

Coming back to our process, can you take a look (in Direct Experience, DE) on your brain running in circles? Please, don't ignore the thoughts that appear. What is trying to ignore what?
Is it really your brain or are those thoughts which share the common denominator, the thought of "I"?
-----------------

I would like you to make an excercise :) Can you write down one should, one would and one must completely? Once you write those three down, look at what are they based on, what type of sensations arise when you read "I would", "I should", and "I must". Do you feel tension in any particular areas of the body? Are those sensations the "self"??
Please do this excercise and share with me the results :)

I Should - I should be able to learn new skills and find a new well paying and rewarding job and be safe again, i am totally capable of learning if i only try harder. ;)))))
I Would - I would be OK if only i figure out what else i can do and what i would Love to do even if it will barely provide for my living expenses, and happiness would be more important than a lot of money.
I Must - I MUST find a meaningful, real passion, life purpose work as a way to make a living without should and woulds and compromises - figure out what i really like which i dont know yet, and better do it sooner then later!

when i read my SHOULD i feel anxiety - solar plexus and chest tension, i am suppressing my rejection of this when i try to think this way , as this particular "should" goes against what i just realized - i don't really want to continue my previous career, but my brain is totally not letting it go as NOTHING will make money similar to what i was making after 20 years. plus to send so many years of training and accumulated knowledge down the drain? my brain is gripping very hard to not let it go and still saving a hope somewhere deep inside that may be it will change and everything will be ok as before :) I do feel that my logical brain/head is my sense of me in this case. my common sense and analytical machine that trying to find solutions for my suitability and comfortable existence. it cares and trying to solve it the way it can... and i am not very happy with these attempts now.

Great, solar plexus and chest tension is marked as anxiety, right?
I have a proposition :) can we please put aside the process of "trying to" find a solution for your proffesional situation for the sake of this process and just look at the direct experience?
The thoughts that appear: " I should be able to learn new skills and find a new well paying and rewarding job and be safe again" are connected with strong sensation in the solar plexus and chest area. Do this sensations make those thoughts appear to be more real? Also, can we look exactly at what is "this thing" that wants to be safe? What is it? Where is it? Can you describe it to me?

when i read my WOULD i feel uncertainty and little hope. still solar plexus/low chest tension feeling, but less. I feel it is still based on fear of survival (money) and connected fear of death. i hope i can escape them and find what i like that will work out but i don't see how it can happen so i continue to worry and pressure myself to think about other solutions. (so its "me worrying" pressuring "me analyzing center" to make sure me-body and mind as entity is well cared for and not at crisis because of my own wants and needs and actions. Would is MORE felt in the chest area if it is important.

Great job! Fear of death is the most basic fear, so it is totally normal that it comes up. Again, very similar to the answer above, can you look at what is afraid to die? In direct experience, can you find a being separate from all that is? Can it die?

the Must i reject the most even i put a message i feel is better solution in there - i just dont like to be told what to do in MUST form by anybody, and when i do it to myself and its logical and makes sense its the worst. I feel that I want to reject MUST message but i can't do just nothing as it is illogical :)))). I HAVE to (must) do something, and i feel like i am running in circles in my head and its tension on my neck and shoulders and chest and solar plexus - all at once... and hopeless feeling that i don't see exit after so many attempts (increasing tension in the head) so i will not be able to find it no matter how long i will torture myself. (overall i always had tense neck but last few months i got into worst shape - its painful tight, and i do yoga, try to relax it during meditation directed, and stretching and try to self massage but it is not loosening.) And even i have a feeling that if i will let it all go and start to try things and something WILL happen and no real tragedy will be as output and may be benefit and i just gonna do it even if i worry - whatever i feel as my central brain command center is not letting it grip and disregards my other understanding as childish and saying its nonsense to try NOT to act on a problem.
i am perfectly torturing my body with my own brain. sad ! :)

Ok, it seems as if there is a fight of thoughts going on :) this conflict is causing tension, as there is a strong identification with the concepts about yourself. So... what is liking and disiliking something in DE? Is it something more than preference (thought) connected with sensation?
What is experiencing feeling stuck? Is feeling stuck any different than a intense sensation associated with thought of "I" being stuck?
Let's look at the resistance to letting go - What would happen if you let go of attempts to control events?
----------------

Ok then, what is searching? In direct experience, can you find "the searcher"?
What are the expectations in direct experience?

searching is trying to find a way to achieve something :) I can't really find the searcher, as i assume its ME (whoever exist in my head/brain/ behind my eyes - and whoever POINTs intentions into actions. as for direct experience expectation - i described in my introduction i had certain short but vivid experience or mini-insight i felt in the middle of being desperate and crying hard few weeks ago - I FELT it - i didn't THINK it. it was few seconds of REAL feeling in my whole body and brain like an "understanding wave" came over me and i got immersed into it. i knew that my whole life and and especially what i worry about do not matter on a global scale, it was shocking and rather non-digestible for my inflated ego ... but i felt it and it went away and my brain took over and dismissed it as being emotional and blah.
I guess i expect some gut KNEW feeling again similar to this one or at least do some progress in getting closer to it and get better in observing and detaching from its drama. anything helps :)

Great!! You noticed there is assumption, that there is a "me" behind all this :) we have a saying: "assumption the basics of every fuck up" ;)
so, let's examine the assumption of existence of someone in your "head,brain,behind your eyes". Does a subject doing things have to exist for things to happen? Does it exist in the DE? If yes, where?
...Or is there just pointing?
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What are life priorities? Can you examine them in direct experience?

i am not sure how to examine life priorities in a direct experience. they more intellectual when i think about it but i will try. i guess i want to feel happy and involved by doing something meaningful that helps others or earth, i want to feel in a "flow" or "zone" while doing something i like and living full. to feel happy, relaxed, strong, powerful, helping, mighty, healing, supporting, involved. i just tried to list all that came to mind

Ok, wonderful. The life priorities you described, what are they?
"I want to feel happy and involved..."
"I want to feel in a "flow" or "zone"
"I want to feel relaxed, strong, powerful.."
All those sentences, no matter how beautiful, they still are thoughts, labeled as "life priorities". Another story added to the concept of the "self".
There is a question of being driven by thoughts - what is driven by thoughts? What chooses that "this particular thought will be my life priority"? What gives significance to thoughts? Can you find a chooser in DE?
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As far as I understand, you are hoping for relieving tension in the body and mind. Are you able to find the root cause of the tensions? I mean the common denominator for anxiety, stress and lack of calmness?
how interesting - this question pretty much SUMMARIZED everything i described on this page before. wow.
my inability to let go of worries i think comes from the belief that i have to act and do something about my life and responsible for it, i have to be in control, otherwise it all will fall apart and i will die. (bare bones )

:) It is understandable, social conditioning is very strong. I already asked you the questions about the control, safety and death. Now you might take a look at the "I", that controls. Can you find it? Examine your life and see, if you are in control. If yes, what do you have control over?

and i only came little closer to be able to see what i am doing to myself while i think like that, and i feel its self destructive and not a way to go, but i can't just let it go. i am stripping it as much as i can. but i feel i am going in a good direction.

don't worry, you are on the good way :)
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Ok, let's focus on the "I am driving my life on a sensory deep level". Can you please explain this sensory deep level of the "I" experience?
my me-sense is somewhere in my head - center. or even more on a back part of the skull in a form of tension,
when i start to actively thinking and point my intention to some problems i sensed it back there. almost like looking back at the inside of my skull there while really looking forward with my real eyes.
i also finally learned how to relax my head and brain and experience it from time to time during meditations and this feeling is incredibly good. some kind of brain hollowness and head "expansion" like a balloon feelings i didn't experience before. just feels better comparing to my normal mode but i can't sustain it for a long.
back to me - seems it is an OCD infected combination of control freak and mighty computer center, analyzing world and people patterns and situations and making sure i navigate them in a best possible way and to my benefit (survival again). when i started to meditate i caught myself many times in the future worries (i dont dwell in the past -i constantly make plans, trying to be efficient, making dialogs with other people in my mind for mostly work situations, playing them over and over to see how better to present myself or not to hurt somebody's feelings but bring my point across etc
(yes i used to be a people pleaser at its best too - but i think i am making progress in working on it)

Does the body demand the "I" to be able to function? Does a heart need a control/order from you in order to beat? Does the heart need a thought of "I" to function?
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Can you look at the "I" without the attempts to look through it? How does it look like? Where is it? Does it have a color, texture, smell?
it feels in the back of my head - skull and brain attention focus feeling. Also i just tried to sense it again - i think heart center involved too. i feel these 2 centers when i think about me - chest and head. But i am not sure if its more intellectual as i read a lot about heart center in yoga.
does not have smell or color. Even when i meditate i sometimes see colors. some weird splashes and pulsating swirls (circles moving away from me like i see inside of some large blood vessel) and its mainly purple color on a black background, but these colors don't have feeling of being me. they feels external to me. something i see "in front of my eyes".

:) Let's take a look at your eyes. Where is the boundary between what is beeing seen and the perceiver?

[olgad]

Dea Pau,

i have a small suggestion (humble)
may be we can reduce the amount of "sub-threads" inside the discussion. i feel like it is spreading and getting harder to really think about each and every question in full during 1 day i have to reply as it is a lot of them now, I know I tend to answer and write a lot and add data and it looks like it starts new sub-threads and they multiple. if you think its ok - fine. but if you combine some of my texts blocks - that may help to reduce the "branching"
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Coming back to our process, can you take a look (in Direct Experience, DE) on your brain running in circles? Please, don't ignore the thoughts that appear. What is trying to ignore what?
Is it really your brain or are those thoughts which share the common denominator, the thought of "I"?

when my brain running in circles it looks like this:
one of the problem related thoughts surfaces/bubbles up and takes over - what bad would happen IF i will do or not do something - and it usually immediately initiates the command to action - ALERT, ALARM, DANGER -THINK HARDER! to find solution, generate and process all possibilities, think think think... and i am thinking trying to see if anything new will come up. its not usually. and realization of being fruitless triggers the SAME THINK harder command again - you have to do something impulse that completes the circle. and it keep running few times until i realize that i am not doing anything good to myself by being involved in this cycle and just break this circle by jumping out of it :)
GOOD thing - i am not CONSTANTLY doing this - i would go mad if i do. at this point i have these incidents about once a week i would say - for 20-30 minutes. sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. rest of the week i am really not thinking about it and trying to do what i like (sport, painting, seeing friends, yoga etc) but after some time wave comes and screams - one more week passed, NOTHING changed, what you think you are doing and i get involved again - and then realize what i am doing and stop it again. I can't find who is doing it - it seems like this COMMAND thought just surfaces on its own - not bubbles up but ROCKETS up, and it is so strong that it takes over and it takes me time to get out from under its influence.
by trying to observe it i can say that thoughts appears on its own and my reaction is a life long TRAINING on how to handle situations like this - it happens rather automatically - but there is SOMETHING in there new - my ability to observe it and distance and stop it, so again it projects some entity that is able to control this automatic process and reinforcing I illusion. (i - witness)
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The thoughts that appear: " I should be able to learn new skills and find a new well paying and rewarding job and be safe again" are connected with strong sensation in the solar plexus and chest area. Do this sensations make those thoughts appear to be more real? Also, can we look exactly at what is "this thing" that wants to be safe? What is it? Where is it? Can you describe it to me?

yes, these sensations makes the thoughts more solid and weight more for sure. amplifies them. This thing that wants to be safe is what i consider to be me - this unique bundle of body, mind, experiences, memories, reactions, perceptions, emotions, beliefs etc. This bundle considers itself an entity (I-me) and feels very self-valuable (please see my last answer about my childhood experience about it) and it doesn't want to dissapear as anything else but its own unique existence matters.to this entity.
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Great job! Fear of death is the most basic fear, so it is totally normal that it comes up. Again, very similar to the answer above, can you look at what is afraid to die? In direct experience, can you find a being separate from all that is? Can it die?

i feel that i answer above so i would repeat myself here. at my present understanding when I-bundle exists - this bundle can die. And since i dont have any other experiences i "know" i will die as everything points to it.
but i intellectually feel that i am on a right path and there is no I - we really are in my understanding "androids" with all our feeling and reactions are the unique combination of what environment and society did to us from birth and it keep piling and storing memories in subconscious and creates reaction based on these experiences etc - and it formed our values and beliefs and personalities as a reaction to our experiences but i only theoretically think it and still I wrapping this thinking :( its so frustrating - everything CIRCLES back into I think I do wrap. and its going in circles like my other dialogues.
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Ok, it seems as if there is a fight of thoughts going on :) this conflict is causing tension, as there is a strong identification with the concepts about yourself. So... what is liking and disiliking something in DE? Is it something more than preference (thought) connected with sensation?
What is experiencing feeling stuck? Is feeling stuck any different than a intense sensation associated with thought of "I" being stuck?
Let's look at the resistance to letting go - What would happen if you let go of attempts to control events?

Liking and disliking is JUST thoughts and emotions caused by these thoughts, connected with instruction on what to do to with these emotions - ever grasp something you like and feel good or reject something you dislike and feel bad shorter time - very pavlovian responses really. but they are programmed into our operating system with strong stimulus - seek pleasure and avoid pain on any levels and in any forms they can be. hard to get out of these scheme but i have some position meditation work with pain experience but its a new story. not now. :)
about being in control i think my main problem in letting go is belief that my actions result in outcome and it is being confirmed on a sensory level in form of practicing something.
like if i learn better - i get better measurable results - if you do meditation - you can detach from your destructive thoughts, it works! if you make yourself practice piano longer - you play better, (any sport too) - it works
i experienced these results on my own and it confirms your actions and outcome, so you interpolate it on any action.
if you decide to dig harder - you dig a deeper hole in shorter time :) hehe
if you dont do anything - NOTHING usually happens (i know exceptions but they are exceptions in my experience - only reinforce other side). - all logical constructs i guess. but i never tried to do nothing at all to be honest.
i guess its childhood conditioning. i didnt even dare to try. last half a year i was trying to do as small as possible but i never was able to last more than few days in a row but nothing happened on a practical level in my problem, which kind of confirms non results of non actions. but i understand that it may look differently looking back from few years ahead and on a bigger picture, i am comprehending.
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Great!! You noticed there is assumption, that there is a "me" behind all this :) we have a saying: "assumption the basics of every fuck up" ;)
so, let's examine the assumption of existence of someone in your "head,brain,behind your eyes". Does a subject doing things have to exist for things to happen? Does it exist in the DE? If yes, where?
...Or is there just pointing?

i like assumptions quote, i feel its very funny and very true. any abstractions are already incorrect in some details and degree as they based on other abstractions and it keep multiplying itself further from truth.
i know that neither digestion, heart beat, sweating, breathing - does not require anybody to control it. it just happens.
mental activity, nothing initiates them. on other hands thoughts are coming and going on their own, but they do spark emotions (that do come and go), and these emotions spark reactions and actions and another thoughts. and this chain has illusion like I decided to do it because i identify myself with the secondary reactions and thoughts as I reacted this way.
i think so far i progressed to the point to see that initial thoughts are not mine at all (i didn't think like this until recently really), but i still see ownership of reaction even i understand logically its pretty automatic too. its just HIDDEN in subconscious and wrapped in attachment of me thinking i do think it :) boy its tricky!
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All those sentences, no matter how beautiful, they still are thoughts, labeled as "life priorities". Another story added to the concept of the "self".
There is a question of being driven by thoughts - what is driven by thoughts? What chooses that "this particular thought will be my life priority"? What gives significance to thoughts? Can you find a chooser in DE?

yes, i realized it when i read it before, all my life priorities are thoughts and believes on how i suppose to feel or live.
its third level of abstraction, on a basic level i want to live, i want to be safe, and i want to feel good in any forms it may come (food, entertainment, emotions etc).

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:) It is understandable, social conditioning is very strong. I already asked you the questions about the control, safety and death. Now you might take a look at the "I", that controls. Can you find it? Examine your life and see, if you are in control. If yes, what do you have control over?

this question make me remember a very early childhood memory which somehow got imprinted in my brain where i think my I-feeling got a first real threat - learned about death and being unable to avoid it. i think i was 5-7 years old but i can't say for sure. and i remember where i was and even it was a sunny day - and i was just sitting and thinking to myself. I AM so magnificent, so special, i contain so much inside myself, i can't even believe myself how great i am - so complex, i am so wonderful, i am such an unbelievably great being - HOW ITS POSSIBLE that such a treasure can be perished or just die and dissapear. i remember that state of total disbelief and denial and underlying thought that somehow i will do that nobody else will do and find the way to avoid death. so looking back it was a first big test for ego creation. but it was so bright that i remembered it still after so many years. now looking back i am amazed how such a small kid (i never had a greatest self esteem - this is very unusual for me) but i had these thoughts.

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:) Let's take a look at your eyes. Where is the boundary between what is beeing seen and the perceiver?

boundary is very fuzzy and i can't really say its the outside of my eyes. because i can see with closed (to some degree) and opened eyes and i understand that eyes are not really seeing anything - they just a light frequency receivers and they send signals to the brian where they are being analyzed and categorized for "understanding" of what you see. when i think about seeing - i still think about eyes even i know brain processes it just because i know that eyes are the ones that makes the images appear to start with. now when i am thinking about seeing boundary it comes back into back of my skull feeling of comprehending.

[olgad]

:) It is understandable, social conditioning is very strong. I already asked you the questions about the control, safety and death. Now you might take a look at the "I", that controls. Can you find it? Examine your life and see, if you are in control. If yes, what do you have control over?

i didnt really answer this question in my previous reply - i got carried over somethign else.
i will answer it here again.
Life is giving you illusion you have a choice to decide
what to it
what to read
what music to listen
what to wear
what college to go
what to study etc
i would say that few days ago i was much more solid in saying yes - i do it myself.
now i would say i understand MORE that each my selection from this list came from subconscious experience of previous life events that make me like or dislike certain things and events, and most of the time i select automatically because of my previous experiences that triggers emotions of like or dislike. so it looks like i really don't drive consciously. this is intellectual but at least its different from week ago. even i kind of knew if before i didnt really felt it is true. now its closer to understanding i think. (if i am right about it :)