Come on in, leave your beliefs at the door.

[Nemo]

Here's something I wrote about death, if you're interested:
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/2011/10/death.html

[Nemo]

How's it going my friend?

[mgtribes]

I have been resisting and procrastinating. It happens on this journey that I get to the point where I just don't make the effort to work. or log in to the site. What is resisting?

I am getting better at viewing the world as if there is no self. I remember to do that exercise. It makes me feel detached. Like I am watching but not involved.

I've been really struggling with emotion and reactions due to my feelings about the breakup. I keep trying to bring it back to there is no self...what is the origin of these emotions, and still they overwhelm me sometimes. though the edge is off. but to see them dispassionately is sometimes so challenging. i have a lot of ego wrapped up in feeling hurt and wanting the world to see my hurt, and say Poor Mike. and i recognise it and see it for what it is, and I still play that game.

[mgtribes]

In a fit of inspiration, I started reading some of your other threads here. I like the way you think and thought it would be good for me to see what pointing you are doing with others.

reading the other posts, both yours, and theirs, has really helped open my eyes. some great insights.

i love what you said about how you don't have to analyse your shit before you flush it. And the getting caught up in stories trap....especially stories about another person, though really, stories are stories, and have no place in the right now. or no relavence.

I'm struggling with or waffling between writing about what I know, and what I believe to be true. the concept of duality, and illusion are things that I accept and believe to be true, and are the foundation of this process, but they are really still beliefs. I still see separate individuals walking around living their lives. I still look out of my own two eyes, and see the world from behind them.

One of my instructors, many years ago, asked, during a guided mediations, who is the one that sees? who is the one that hears? who is the one that feels? and it's interesting to realise that it is our senses that tie us to our sense of self. And tie that into our head, since most of our senses reside in our head. And it was the feeling sense that made me see more clearly that self wasn't in my head. And self wasn't locateable. And while i want to accept that self doesn't exist, I still have this strong identity with self, and perhaps an attachment to self, because I've had this idea that I am self or I have self for a very long time.

a bit of an aside...I have a physics degree, and had the opportunity to learn all about the crazy world of quantum and sub-atomic physics. given some of the quotes you have used, I suspect you have a similar background, or at least an interest in that realm. Quantum physics really does help to point at the illusions of reality, given the 'unnatural' behaviour of it. Something you said to someone else, and me as well, about observing happens, but doesn't require an observer, reminds me about the idea in quantum physics, only in reverse, where outcomes aren't realised until they are observed...like Schroedinger's cat, and wave-particle duality, and the tree falling in the forest, etc... not sure where I am going with this, but it all seems so connected.... cracks in the armour of the illusion, or glimpses behind the curtain.

Mike

[Nemo]

Hey there Mike :)

I don't have a physics degree, although I have considered it, but I am definitely highly interested in the fields of quantum mechanics and the likes, and I too think they tie into this brand of philosophy superbly. Once, I even started developing a bit of a theory, naively thinking it was somewhat original, and was amused and delighted to find that it had already been "discovered", extensively explored and well established in the 19th century by a philosopher by the name of Auguste Comte - something called Positivism. Are you familiar with it? Heheh, I actually think Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz sums it up quite nicely:

Dorothy: We want to see the Wizard!
GateKeeper: The Wizard? But nobody can see the Great Oz! Nobody's ever seen the Great Oz! Even I've never seen him!
Dorothy: Well, then how do you know there is one?

It also seems to work hand-in-hand with Occam's razor, which is another great scientific & philosophical tool which I think I spoke a bit about in that other thread. Anyway, considering you are also a student of such things, I have a statement for you worth some consideration, in relation to no-self:

There is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn't exist at all.

Look at this identity with self. Is it anything more than just a thought? What does it feel like? What is it exactly that indicates this feeling is of self?

The reason you see separate individuals walking around is because there are. I mean, it's silly to try and convince yourself otherwise. You mentioned Schrodinger's Cat, and it's exactly like that - duality and nonduality are both completely true at the same time. It's like fingers on a hand or cells in a body. But it doesn't indicate self. Does a tree have a self, do you think? What about the individual leaves on a tree, do they have separate selves? Could they exist independant of the tree? And what about the cells in the leaves, do they have all have selves? Where is the line drawn?

[mgtribes]

The statement you make:

There is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn't exist at all.

I can totally accept that as true... however, the doubt that one can introduce is that there is a difference been not observed, and not observable. Just because I have not observed something does not mean it is not observable.

but what you say makes so much sense. I have not successfully been able to draw a boundary around my self, or pinpoint it. It is highly illusive, or non-existant. I believe it doesn't exist. but that is belief. My teacher in Texas, who is actually in Australia right now, says, "Get rid of your beliefs. The Truth doesn't care if you believe in it or not." he is all about direct experience of truth. everything else is heresay. he goes as far as to consider beliefs akin to cancerous growths that need to be excised.

If there is no self, then what is the source of these thoughts of self? wow. just had an image that the thoughts just are. somehow they are connected or associated with this body, and seem to be in my head... are they just directed at this body? Associated with this body? how and why? God, I'm so bloody analytical.

I don't exist, because it is impossible to observe myself.

It would be like Mario being able to observe me, the guy playing Donkey Kong.

feeling very frustrated. feelings of frustration...ego feels frustration...

[Nemo]

I can totally accept that as true... however, the doubt that one can introduce is that there is a difference been not observed, and not observable. Just because I have not observed something does not mean it is not observable.

Yes, agreed.

but what you say makes so much sense. I have not successfully been able to draw a boundary around my self, or pinpoint it. It is highly illusive, or non-existant. I believe it doesn't exist. but that is belief. My teacher in Texas, who is actually in Australia right now, says, "Get rid of your beliefs. The Truth doesn't care if you believe in it or not." he is all about direct experience of truth. everything else is heresay. he goes as far as to consider beliefs akin to cancerous growths that need to be excised.

Sounds pretty spot-on. Belief structures are things that grow, decay, change and evolve, all the time. The best way to exorcise them is to be aware of them, how they work, and see them for what they are. Then they seem to lose power. There's an old zen saying that goes something like "All that's left is laughter." This comes when life is seen not to be personal, and then not taken as such. Nothing is taken seriously.

So, as you've said, you believe there is no self, but because it is a belief doesn't necessarily make it untrue. Some beliefs can be extremely helpful, at least for a time, as long is there is an ever-present preparedness to discard them.

If there is no self, then what is the source of these thoughts of self? wow. just had an image that the thoughts just are. somehow they are connected or associated with this body, and seem to be in my head... are they just directed at this body? Associated with this body? how and why? God, I'm so bloody analytical.

Yes, good line of enquiry. Observe thoughts, watch where they appear from, what causes them. Are all thoughts associated with or directed at body? Do they come from within or are they triggered from factors in the environment? Can you chose which ones happen and which ones don't? Do they need you to will them in to existence, or do they just happen?

[mgtribes]

Sorry. I am losing focus. back yet again.

Thoughts just seem to happen. I can push them away, but they just seem to show up. and lately have been turning into epic stories.

I've been struggling with letting go, and trying to stop the chatter, or misdirect it. had an interesting experience though...

I had an extremely painful experience a year ago, which trashed my relationship... well that was the end result. and I had less than pleasant feelings towards the guy involved. This year, at almost the exactly same time, the roles between the 3 of us were all jumbled, but the events that occured were shockingly similar. (BTW, this happens to me all the time.) And I had this thought as I was driving: I am x (x being the name of the other guy.)

And it didn't shock me or horrify me. it made me laugh.

funny.

Ok, back to observing thoughts...

[mgtribes]

Feeling stuck Nemo. Not sure where to go. A lot of my thoughts seem to come from emotions, or at least they are associated with my emotions. a lot of emotions to deal with lately. I think I need a break from them!

[Nemo]

Hey there, for some reason I wasn't notified of your March 4th post. Apologies.

Every decision you make, every thought you contemplate, and every emotion you feel comes with a story you tell yourself to explain it. Mostly, these stories aren't true. We habitually lie to ourselves. It's not even necessarily a bad thing, it's part of being human. And some of the stories are necessary and even helpful for our survival and the ways we operate and function within the structure of society. What we are trying to do is simply see these stories for what they really are, not to erase them... simply to see that they aren't truly our identity. Detach.

So tell me, when an emotion arises, where does it come from? Can you chose which emotions you have? Or even the thoughts/stories which appear to be spawned by them (whether they are believed or not)?

[mgtribes]

Emotions seem to be triggered from these stories. I remember an event and that initiates a story, which drives the emotion. I don't seem to be very good about chosing my emotions. though there are moments when I feel calm, or centred, and the stories and emotion are different, so my state of mind seems to make a big difference.

So your email has it in reverse. that the emotions come first, and spawn the stories. i wonder...because if the story is different, the emotion is different.

I don't know where all this comes from...emotions, stories. the stories seem to come from my mind. the emotions are more basic. Do I create them? I would think that I must, since there appears to be some level of control I can weild over them, just not very successfully, all the time, or most of the time.

I feel I am rambling. still feeling very directionless.

[Nemo]

Emotions and stories... it's a little like the chicken or the egg I suppose.
Try this. Rather than contemplating emotions in general, look at one that you are experiencing right now. Trace it back. Where does it come from? What triggered it? Did a "you" trigger it?

[Nemo]

Hey there Mike, are you still around?
Let's give this a fresh go.
Tell me, where are you feeling stuck?

[Nemo]

I was really enjoying our dialogue, Mike, and I hope we are able to continue it when you are ready.
Love to you.