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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Fri May 25, 2012 1:37 am

“NO” “You see there is NO EGO. Some coke snorting nutter made that concept popular!”
He might have made it popular, but all words and concepts are only real because people agree on their meaning. Concepts like motivation, status, success, love, are only real because people agree on their meaning.
“Look, if you make a promise is there a promise?”
If one makes a promise, there is a promise.
“Do promises exist in the world?”
If you mean does it have a physical body that can be touched, which makes it real? Obviously not! However, air is also not tangible but it is real. Then we get into the physical world where nothing is real, since molecules and subatomic particles come in and out of existence, and between the nucleus and the electrons there is nothing but space. So, from that point of view, your body is all space, does that mean it exists?
“Can you find and identify a promise?”
Even though it is a concept and concepts do not have a physical presence, they can be identified as a future action. The reality comes from the agreement of what it is, just like all of the words in any language.
“You see there is NO EGO”
See, here is a good example, you say there is NO EGO, because all of you here at LU agree on this concept and you are trying to convince me to buy into this concept. However it is just that, a concept that is real to you, because you all agree on it.
“Some coke snorting nutter made that concept popular!”
He introduced the idea, but people are the ones that bought into it, made it popular, and consequently made it real. Language is just a way to communicate ideas and concepts. Mathematics, by that matter, is also not real; addition, subtraction, multiplications, calculus, and all the rest, are also just concepts; what is a four? Why? A lot of the quantum physics, cannot be seen and proven, however, are they real?
“Look, if you make a promise is there a promise? Do promises exist in the world?”
Based on my explanation above, I would say yes. Then defining “exist” would be in order. For argument sake, if we say that only things that can be touched exist, and at the same time, since it is a concept, and if we agree that all concepts are not real, then I would say no. By that matter, then also memories, dreams, and all ideas, are not real. Including the idea of SELF.
“Can you find and identify a promise?”
A wedding ring is a promise. A police badge is a promise. A medical license is a promise.
“So, is there an EGO?”
Yes and NO. If we agree that any concept that people agree on IS, not necessarily true or accurate, but just IS, then the answer is yes. On the other hand, if we agree that only things one can touch are real, then no. Yes, it might seem like a language game, and it is. Now, if we agree that only things one can touch are real, then “life” is not real either, because you can not touch life. You can feel it, you can see individual organisms alive, but the life force that makes them alive, you can not see, touch it, or identify it in the real world. Then I would say that there is not life.
“Beyond the concept that there is a separate part of you called an EGO? Show it to me - or describe it in detail.”
My ego is composed of all my memories, my past experiences, my knowledge, the place I was born, my family name, my height, my age, my weight, my good looks ☺! Now, this is my ego and it is, however, it might not be true, or accurate, but it is an ego.
“There is a body? and it can be located? Even if it only exists by agreement we can agree on form to an extent. It is verifiable. So for this response the one task and one task alone is: Show me your ego - or describe it in detail. Make it verifiable.”
If by verifiable, you mean can you touch it, or is there a location for it, no, it is a concept. However, the ego is also a legal entity and your credit card, bank statements, drivers license, and anything with your name on is your ego.
“Who owns it?”
Your credit card companies, your mortgage holder, the IRS, your kids, your ex-wife, the government, and all responsibilities with your name on it (which are all also concepts).
“What colour is it?”
It is transparent.
“Where is it located?”
On all the documents that have your name on them.
“Why is it there?”
Because you are an idiot, a consumers, and all you think about is buying stupid shit you don’t need.
“When did it start?”
The moment you learned to talk.
“How can you tell?”
Because it is language that gives it “life”
“Or anything else that comes to mind. A good report will use the 5 Ws and 1 H.
Give a good report about your EGO. IT MUST BE VERIFIABLE! If it is there it should be easy. Write as much or as little as you like. Thanks. So, is there an EGO?
Look, the concept of EGO, because we both know it is just a concept, is not real, and it is invented by society, just like love, consequently, there is no ego and there is no love, and all other concepts, like marriage, family, or any other label, does not exists. Furthermore, physical things do not exists either; things like a table, this too is a concept, and all it is a piece of wood (or whatever it is made out of), and we agree it is a table, but it is not. Is it verifiable? No, you can touch the wood, but not the table. However, I have said it over and over again, that the EGO is an illusions.


Let me repeat that... THE EGO IS AN ILLUSION.... THE EGO IS AN ILLUSION... I have said it many many times before.


Consequently;
Since the self is a concept, and we cannot touch it, or verify it, then it does not exists.
Since life is a concept, and we cannot touch it, or verify it, then it does not exists.
Since love is a concept, and we cannot touch it, or verify it, then it does not exists.
Since black holes cannot be touched, or verified, then they do not exists.
Since all ideas are just concepts, and we cannot touch them, or verify them, then they does not exists.
Since liberation is just concept, and we cannot touch it, or verify it, then it does not exists. It is a good way to make some money, but it does not exist.

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mark_tywharton
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby mark_tywharton » Mon May 28, 2012 10:24 am

Air exists, it has physical form.

Future actions don't exist, they are concepts.

There is no ego is not a concept.

There is no ego.

The reason you were asked if you had done the Landmark Education Advanced course is because there is a section in the course which defines reality.

As you say it is an agreement in language.

But if you haven't done the course, then this conversation won't work because you are living from a different paradigm and don't know the agreement.

A wedding ring is a wedding ring.

A Police badge is a Police badge.

A medical licence is a medical licence.

And a promise is a promise.

No wonder you are having problems with this LOL.

Here is the pointer (again).

What you describe as your ego is not your ego.

First of all it doesn't belong to you, because there is no you for it to belong to.

What you described was a collection of other things.

Memories, memories are memories.

Knowledge, knowledge is knowledge.

Name, a name is a name.

Height, height is height.

Etc.

These seem like a sense of self?

But are they fixed?

Or transient?

Are they a you?

Or are they just qualities?

Is there are you?

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helio
Posts: 104
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Thu May 31, 2012 7:46 pm

Air exists, it has physical form.
Future actions don't exist, they are concepts.
There is no ego is not a concept.
There is no ego.
The reason you were asked if you had done the Landmark Education Advanced course is because there is a section in the course which defines reality.
As you say it is an agreement in language.
But if you haven't done the course, then this conversation won't work because you are living from a different paradigm and don't know the agreement.
A wedding ring is a wedding ring.
A Police badge is a Police badge.
A medical licence is a medical licence.
And a promise is a promise.
No wonder you are having problems with this LOL.
Here is the pointer (again).
What you describe as your ego is not your ego.
First of all it doesn't belong to you, because there is no you for it to belong to.
What you described was a collection of other things.
Memories, memories are memories.
Knowledge, knowledge is knowledge.
Name, a name is a name.
Height, height is height.
Etc.
These seem like a sense of self?
But are they fixed?
Or transient?
Are they a you?
Or are they just qualities?
Is there are you?
Once again you have missed the message, and this is probably because I speak to you from three different perspectives, however, I noticed you only seem to capture one simple perspective, and consequently, once again you have chosen to only look at parts of the message. Accordingly, I will once again try to simplify it for you, stick to one perspective, and see if, if, perhaps you might be able to understand.

Ego is a concept, and all the qualities I described are symbols, which represent the concept, and if people agree on the concept, then it is real. Now, we can get technical, and if we can simply agree that:

If, a concept = not real -->

then, a wedding ring is just a ring, a medical license is not even a license, because a license is also a concept, consequently, a medical license is just a piece of paper with words on it.

Then the ego, being a concept = is not real.

However, what you seem to miss is that once you eliminate the ego, the illusion of the ego-self, then there is still the True self... and this has been realized by many religions, philosophies, and Buddha's throughout the ages, which is what I refer too... and something that obviously you have not realized, let alone experienced.

However, for now, lets keep it simple, level one, so that you do not get confused...

If, a concept = not real -->
then, a wedding ring is just a ring, a medical license is not even a license, because a license is also a concept, consequently, a medical license is just a piece of paper with words on it.
Then the ego, being a concept = is not real.

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mark_tywharton
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby mark_tywharton » Thu May 31, 2012 8:31 pm

Once again you have missed the message, and this is probably because I speak to you from three different perspectives, however, I noticed you only seem to capture one simple perspective, and consequently, once again you have chosen to only look at parts of the message. Accordingly, I will once again try to simplify it for you, stick to one perspective, and see if, if, perhaps you might be able to understand.
Okay thanks, this is probably a good idea because the only thing that should be happening here is seeing that self is not real.
Ego is a concept, and all the qualities I described are symbols, which represent the concept, and if people agree on the concept, then it is real. Now, we can get technical, and if we can simply agree that:

If, a concept = not real -->
We would need to agree on reality.

Did you do the Landmark Advance Course and do you remember the tests for reality from that course?

A concept is a concept. It is an abstract idea.

Is there a you?

"I went to the shop" what does I represent?

Point at a cup and say "there is a cup"

Does I represent something in the same way that cup represents something?

Think of a cup.

Is the idea of a cup closer to I than the actual cup?

Does I represent something that exists or that does not exist?

Or is I simply a symbolic abstraction?

Is there really a you?
then, a wedding ring is just a ring, a medical license is not even a license, because a license is also a concept, consequently, a medical license is just a piece of paper with words on it.
Yes, exactly. But this is about Self, so do you exist?
Then the ego, being a concept = is not real.
Is there a thing it represents? concept as idea? the idea? does it represent anything or is it a general notion about a whole load of qualities?

However, what you seem to miss is that once you eliminate the ego, the illusion of the ego-self, then there is still the True self... and this has been realized by many religions, philosophies, and Buddha's throughout the ages, which is what I refer too... and something that obviously you have not realized, let alone experienced.
How can I have experienced it if I don't exist?
However, for now, lets keep it simple, level one, so that you do not get confused...

If, a concept = not real -->
then, a wedding ring is just a ring, a medical license is not even a license, because a license is also a concept, consequently, a medical license is just a piece of paper with words on it.
Then the ego, being a concept = is not real.
There is no ego.

There is no I.

Look again, the job is simple. Find this true self and send a photo please.

Is there a true self?

or is this just another idea?

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Thu May 31, 2012 10:35 pm

A concept is a concept. It is an abstract idea.
Is there a you?
"I went to the shop" what does I represent?
Point at a cup and say "there is a cup"
Does I represent something in the same way that cup represents something?
Think of a cup.
Is the idea of a cup closer to I than the actual cup?
Does I represent something that exists or that does not exist?
Or is I simply a symbolic abstraction?
Is there really a you?
Ok, let me play dumb here. The "you" or "me" is the combination of the body, the mind, and all the qualities described. The agreement is that this is know as the "self"
Yes, exactly. But this is about Self, so do you exist?
Yes.
Is there a thing it represents? concept as idea? the idea? does it represent anything or is it a general notion about a whole load of qualities?
It is a notion about the body, the mind, and all the qualities discussed.
There is no ego.
There is an ego, but it is an illusion.
There is no I.
There is an I, which refers to the body, the mind, and all the qualities discussed.
Look again, the job is simple. Find this true self and send a photo please.
Is there a true self?
or is this just another idea?
The true self transcends the body, the mind, and all the qualities discussed. It is all of this, and everything else in the universe. The true self is everything... everything that ever was, everything there is, and everything there will be.

You seem to lump all three of these entities as one, however, all three are different.

1) The ego = illusion, and therefore it is not real, but it does exist because people agree on what it is.

2) The "I" is a language tool that is used to make a reference to a person. This also exist, and it is only part of the whole.

These two, however, are language tools, and from that perspective they are both concepts, and these concepts do not have a physical presence.

In reality, there is the body, there is the mind, and there are qualities. These things just are, but separated and void of the concept of self, or labels, they become what they are. In this perspective, there is just a body, there is just a mind, and there are just qualities.

3) The true self is the life force that is all around you, and within you.

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mark_tywharton
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby mark_tywharton » Thu May 31, 2012 11:02 pm

Ok, let me play dumb here. The "you" or "me" is the combination of the body, the mind, and all the qualities described. The agreement is that this is know as the "self"
NO

All human beings have a body

All human beings have thoughts

All human beings have qualities?

How do YOU see your SELF

What is it that makes Helio distinct from other humans?

What distinguishes Helio from???

What YOU say about that and how you ACT around that is SELF.

SELF is the lead role in the screen play of Helio.

Look there...

SMOKE AND MIRRORS - Magic!!!

Look again...

POOF

Was never real was it?

The true self transcends the body, the mind, and all the qualities discussed. It is all of this, and everything else in the universe. The true self is everything... everything that ever was, everything there is, and everything there will be.

You seem to lump all three of these entities as one, however, all three are different.

1) The ego = illusion, and therefore it is not real, but it does exist because people agree on what it is.

2) The "I" is a language tool that is used to make a reference to a person. This also exist, and it is only part of the whole.

These two, however, are language tools, and from that perspective they are both concepts, and these concepts do not have a physical presence.

In reality, there is the body, there is the mind, and there are qualities. These things just are, but separated and void of the concept of self, or labels, they become what they are. In this perspective, there is just a body, there is just a mind, and there are just qualities.

3) The true self is the life force that is all around you, and within you.
One word...

UNIVERSE!

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:23 pm

NO
Hahahaha... it is this kind of insightful reasonable explanation that really makes your case... "NO." Ok, I guess it is a "NO" because you say so... hahahaha
All human beings have a body. All human beings have thoughts. All human beings have qualities?
How do YOU see your SELF
How do I see myself? As a human being. A human being implies a separate self that includes everything a human is. Unless you are saying that humans don't exists either... then you will really make me laugh.
What is it that makes Helio distinct from other humans? What distinguishes Helio from??? What YOU say about that and how you ACT around that is SELF. SELF is the lead role in the screen play of Helio. Look there... SMOKE AND MIRRORS - Magic!!! Look again... POOF Was never real was it?
Again, you seem to lump all three terms as one, and you used them interchangeably, which makes me think that you think "ego" is the same as self, and I disagree with that idea.

1) The ego = illusion, and therefore it is not real, but it does exist because people agree on what it is.

2) The "I" is a language tool that is used to make a reference to a person. This also exist, and it is only part of the whole.

These two, however, are language tools, and from that perspective they are both concepts, and these concepts do not have a physical presence.

In reality, there is the body, there is the mind, and there are qualities. These things just are, but separated and void of the concept of self, or labels, they become what they are. In this perspective, there is just a body, there is just a mind, and there are just qualities.

3) The true self is the life force that is all around you, and within you.
One word... UNIVERSE!

You got it... we are all one with the universe... and the universe is one... the universe is the True Self... and that is all there is...

Consequently, when you say there is NO SELF, is the same as saying... there is NO UNIVERSE... or THERE ARE NO HUMANS... both terms of which refer to the same thing.

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mark_tywharton
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby mark_tywharton » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:47 pm

3) The true self is the life force that is all around you, and within you.


NO

The life force that is all around you and within you is the life force that is all around and within

There is no YOU
One word... UNIVERSE!

You got it... we are all one with the universe... and the universe is one... the universe is the True Self... and that is all there is...

Consequently, when you say there is NO SELF, is the same as saying... there is NO UNIVERSE... or THERE ARE NO HUMANS... both terms of which refer to the same thing.
WE ARE NOT ALL ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE

If there is a YOU that is one WITH the Universe then WITH implies duality.

It can be seen that there is no duality.

There is NO true you that is separate from anything.

Let's try this another way.

THIS is the big bang.

The big bang is Helioing and it is Marking and it is Liberation Unleasheding.

Nothing else!

So how does it feel to be liberated from the idea that you have a self?

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:17 am

Let's create a story...

Ok, so, life creates everything including humans, and everything that makes a person is a combination of "things," which generates everything a person thinks, and does. Consequently, there is "NO SELF" that does anything, it is just life flowing, and the human is under the illusion that "he" is the one in control and exists. However, this is just figments of his imagination, which is also a product of life. It is as if God "made him believe" that he had free will, when in reality everything is predetermined by his genetic make up. It is all just one big cosmic joke.

Just like a seed that has a genetic make up that when planted, grows into a tree, and it has branches and leaves. Now, it would be silly for the tree to "think" that it created the branches and the leaves... consequently, telling the tree that there is no "tree" and it is just life flowing, the tree of course would not believe, for this tree has been "creating" branches and leaves all its life.

Now, if "Life" creates everything, and IT flows through it all... then "LIFE" is a force and this force could be called anything, including "SELF."

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mark_tywharton
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If you are new, you can start here

Postby mark_tywharton » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:45 am

If you say so but the point of LU is to get liberated from such complexity.

Why not just call it life?

You just wrote two paragraphs ABOUT life!

And you know what, in the description there was absolutely nothing about life.

So how does it feel?

To be the universe?

That must be fucking awesome!

Describe it - how you feel it - that sense of self you say you have.

In everything?

I mean you are talking from experience right?

This isn't some dumb assed second hand knowledge you got from a book.

You must live it to believe it.

So tell me.

What is it like to be liberated.

Describe it!

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:01 am

Yes it is from experience, and yes, it is lived daily. I spend several posts describing the experience, which you so easily dismissed.

It is like "nothing"... indescribable... it just is... it is nothing in everything... it is meaningless...

ok, try this... eliminate all language from your mind... all labels... all concepts... all ideas you have about everything you think you know... then you will know...

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:08 am

I called it life so you could relate... however, life is also an inaccurate language label we use, and the label is only a representation of "something," consequently, you can call it anything, however, it is all meaningless... including and especially life...

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:19 am

WE ARE NOT ALL ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE.
We are, you just have not realized it. It is your Buddha nature.
If there is a YOU that is one WITH the Universe then WITH implies duality. It can be seen that there is no duality.
There is no duality, being one with the universe means there is only one... the universe... however it is an inaccurate phrased used to describe non-duality from a dual perspective.
There is NO true you that is separate from anything.


Exactly, because the true you is everything, however, you have not realized it...

Ok, think of it this way, now that you "think you know" what you are NOT, tell me, what is it that you actually are?

By the way, "thinking that you know" is part of the illusion, and the moment you realize that you do not know anything, then you will know... and the more you think about what I am saying, the more you will realize the truth... after all, your name is Mark... correct?

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:33 am

It is like watching a movie... you observe to see what happens next... and obviously you are not controlling the action... you just watch... at times you might get a thought as to what might happen... or a thought about a memory you have... but at times... you have no thoughts and are just watching... the thoughts are like a comment some one next to you makes (your ego)... you listen... and you get back to the movie... watching as much detail as you can... you become completely present to the moment... and there is nothing else... just watch what happens and enjoy the ride...

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helio
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Re: If you are new, you can start here

Postby helio » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:36 am

When all you do is "observe" and be present, you witness "life" just like a tree, and everything else in universe does.

We are just another animal, another creature, another organism, with a funny things called a mind.


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