Looking for one on one

[slugsuresh]

I am looking for someone patient to guide me on one on one . I had done with this before with someone on fb . While what was being talked about made all the sense to me, I realize that there is only an intellectual getting of this .

My background is non duality for a while with special emphasis on ramanas technique of being aware of the individual .

My expectation is a clear irrevocable realization understanding of no I . I don't care about the impact of it . Of course I expect the side effects of the removal of this I who keeps worrying about itself for small things . I want to feel the freedom of I . Umm that does sound contradictory .

[slugsuresh]

I think this is my main problem . I can see the sensations and the the thoughts that say I as not I . But how about the intent and action ? That is to say hey now I can lift a hand of my own accord. Who is doing the intention and lifting the hands ? Same with the one looking at the I too

I also have a problem with the sense of self I get when I look. I can't differentiate from the sense of self and the I .

[zenkitties]

Hey slugsuresh,

Firstly, I'd like to welcome you to the forums. I also appreciate you giving me a little background about yourself.

I think we need to first look at the problem of, "what is making the intention of picking up the hand." So what do you think is calling upon these actions? Is it a me, or is there and action and is there commanding that "I have done this." We need you to be honest and have you look at this action taking place and to just look and see what the process actually looks like.

The one looking at the I is the same one commanding the hand to move on "it's own accord."

What is the one that feels a sense of self, is there a separate sense of self?

The mind is a very clever thing with its reasoning which makes it a great tool and I don't want to say too much more because I want you to get it deep down this time. I will be patient with you, promise. :)

-Nick

[slugsuresh]

i think i see your point and can subtly see the thought behind the action too. But what is connecting the thought of moving the hand vs really moving the hand ? that makes me believe or assume an entity which is coordinating the movement. And also to see this forever, should i need to be so vigilant about that as well ?

there is a feeling of me . I cant see the difference between the me and the experience. The mind tends to call it me. Should i start calling it something else to remove the conditioning ? instead of me, should it be said that "there is the experience of me".

[zenkitties]

hey slugsuresh,

I like where your heads at. Your doing a good job so far.

Lets tackle the first question about what is moving the hand. To put it simply, its just another thought which causes the reaction of the hand moving. It's a nice little merry go round affect, thought happens, reaction happens, thought happens, reaction happens. Is this not what karma is described as?

This thought is usually in the form of a "doer" right? It's the "I am moving this hand." But look deeply into this, is it necessary to have a "you" there for the hand to be moving? Is there actually any control over this happening? It either happens or it doesn't based don what thoughts are flowing in and out.

The me feeling, right. Let's look at that, no need to call it anything if you want. It doesn't matter, all we carry about is see what this "me" is before anything has to be done (and nothing has to be done with it, you don't have control over that so no need to worry about it. You just have to see it for what it is.)

[slugsuresh]

All this makes sense and I do see it when I look . But after that when i stop looking and go on with life , the belief in I subconsciously go on unless look again . Maybe I need to look more .

This make me feel this is a gradual process . I don't get the "once you see this this is irreversible " part .

[zenkitties]

hmm.. peculier... It could be the fact that the shift has already happened but there is something that is interesting. You say you've seen "it". Who is there to see it? Also what is there the expectation of, is it that you are expecting something more then what is being shown.

If so what is expecting this shift, what things should be different then what they are right now in this moment?

Is there an I anywhere that can be seen? really look into this and see if you can find it.

What is really going on here? Explain in as much detail as possible.

[slugsuresh]

When i looked, it was only the experience and there was no me . That was for a small duration. After that the i reported you the experience of there was no me. And later now the i is still there and it is still worrying not about it and it complains about not going away . And if i really look again , it could be seen that the one is complaining of i not going away again is not I .

apparently there is a "huge expectation" of i never being there ironically to the I . What is clear now to i is that I is a thought. But that doesnt make the belief in I go away . and yes i can see the previous complaint is that of the i.

i will write more in detail soon.

[slugsuresh]

read the last part of the first paragraph as :

And later now the i is still there and and "I" am still worried about the fact of I being there. I am complaining about I not going away forever And if i really look again , it could be seen that the one is complaining of i not going away again is not I .
This is getting tricky.

[zenkitties]

Don't worry, we're going to figure this out together buddy.

And later now the i is still there and it is still worrying not about it and it complains about not going away

apparently there is a "huge expectation" of i never being there ironically to the I . What is clear now to i is that I is a thought. But that doesnt make the belief in I go away . and yes i can see the previous complaint is that of the i.

Rightly so, just like the seeing that Santa doesn't exist doesn't make that belief go away. How is the seeing of I not being there any different?

We are just trying to see through the Self thought, not trying to make it disappear. There is no need to make it go away.

it could be seen that the one is complaining of i not going away again is not I .

Your assuming there is something there complaining. What is complaining or is complaining just happening out of expectation of some outcome outside of what is?

Really look to see what is complaining, I think that is where we need to go because this sounds like the assumption of there being something complaining, so we need to be clear on what is doing this complaining.


Good stuff so far, keep going buddy!

[zenkitties]

hey slugsuresh,

how are the questions and honesty coming along buddy?

[slugsuresh]

I was going through this big phase of wanting the freedom of no I again even rather especially after seeing that there is no I . I kept telling me that this is the I again and it is harmless . And anyways I looked again last night intensely . It was so clear that there is only experiencing and the experiencer , the I is a mind thought . There were so many thoughts that came , lot with I in there and they were just seen as a thought . A sense of isness everything is as it is prevailed .

But again today now dealing with the expectation of the no I to come back .

Is it fine to now believe that there is no I like an antidote to the troubling I thought which expects stuff now that the no I is seen ? Well that is a question from the I again .

Yes these are thoughts , they are harmless .

There is also a headache from sleeplessness and there is some feeling which doesn't like that and another feeling doesn't like that feeling

Overall there is relief and an idea that I is stuck though the no I was seen .

[zenkitties]

I was going through this big phase of wanting the freedom of no I again even rather especially after seeing that there is no I . I kept telling me that this is the I again and it is harmless . And anyways I looked again last night intensely . It was so clear that there is only experiencing and the experiencer , the I is a mind thought .

What is wanting the freedom from it, is the freedom itself, all that needs to be done is to look and see that, that thought isn't real outside of it being a real thought happening from no-thing.

It was so clear that there is only experiencing and the experiencer , the I is a mind thought .

There is no experiencer, there is only experiencing happening. the experiencer too is a thought that perpetuates and keeps the I thought going.

Is it fine to now believe that there is no I like an antidote to the troubling I thought which expects stuff now that the no I is seen ? Well that is a question from the I again .

Right on, keep going in this direction that that question is just another thought therefore is not of any value, it holds no real weight. The I is trying to reason with itself that there is an antidote to itself. The thought is very clever, which is why its so useful but it is not a master. It is like the belief of Santa Clause, what is the difference between that belief and the belief that there is an I?

Is the I anywhere to be found, is it tangible and can it be pointed to, or is it just a compilation of thoughts just fighting out of protection of themselves, for love of themselves. Do not worry, the thoughts don't die and they don't have to. Just let it be seen that they aren't what is what is thought to be slugsuresh (or whatever your called outside of the internet)

There is also a headache from sleeplessness and there is some feeling which doesn't like that and another feeling doesn't like that feeling

Overall there is relief and an idea that I is stuck though the no I was seen .

Cool, man keep going you're doing a good job. Listen to the sensations and feel them fully, although thoughts are not real as an actual tangible "identity or doer" the body still has bodily sensations. The body is a sense organ which is why it responds even to actions that happen in dream state. Have you noticed that?

Awesome that there is a feeling of relief but keep going, push it further, really look and see that there is no you there, that typing is just happening, thoughts are just happening, keyboard is just clicking.

One way is just look and focus on one thing that may be dominating awareness in the current room weather its a computer fan or the keyboard and see how there does not have to be the door or the "commentator" there for it to exist.

[zenkitties]

Also I know it seems kind of redundant in this fashion but lets just make sure its seen.

It isn't that the looking is on what what may be there, its the search to comfirm what is not there. With first hand comfirmation comes the shift in seeing.

[zenkitties]

hey slugsuresh,

just seeing how your progress is going. I would like you to continue to post to me what you're finding at least once a day so if you go off the beaten path I can steer you back in the right direction.