Before I digress

[Florisness]

Hello Bettine,

Not actively, but I do find that I cry easily when I am contemplating these things a lot. Not happy, not sad, just emotion. After answering the other questions I will call it just a mounting sensation that leads to the crying. Perhaps I find the sensations overwhelming because I am focusing on it. This feeling inquiry actually triggers this response a lot.

Yes but not very intensely and in an un-rooted sort of way, also mostly about background life stuff and not the inquiry. The fear is starting to feel unrelated to any actual happening though.

So would you say that you allow the emotions to be there, or do you have a sense that you are avoiding feeling them? Are these emotions protecting anything?

Yes good job for the feeling contemplation. For the sake of not overlooking something let's do hearing too. We won't do smelling and tasting. Listen to sounds and report:
- can you find a hearer of sounds? Like an I or ears doing the hearing?
- is there a difference between sounds and hearing?
- in the statement 'I hear sounds', does the word 'I' point to anything in the experience of hearing?

Looking forward hearing from you,
Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

So would you say that you allow the emotions to be there, or do you have a sense that you are avoiding feeling them?

I think I was looking for it (not with this - in my life before), to be honest and this is quite embarrassing, it feels a lot like being loved felt like when I used to fantasize about being loved. This is just not where I was expecting to find it.

Are these emotions protecting anything?

Well the fantasies were always a form of self comfort so yes, but now it's different, I guess in that it's not something I have to work for, it's just there. So now there is also a sense of gratitude, not separate more a mixture.

-

can you find a hearer of sounds? Like an I or ears doing the hearing?

No

-

is there a difference between sounds and hearing?

There is no sound just the hearing of it.

-

in the statement 'I hear sounds', does the word 'I' point to anything in the experience of hearing?

I am wondering if I am the hearing/sensation. I am not sure. I'm getting confused again, I will think on it more.

Thank you
B

[Florisness]

Good evening :)

I think I was looking for it (not with this - in my life before), to be honest and this is quite embarrassing, it feels a lot like being loved felt like when I used to fantasize about being loved. This is just not where I was expecting to find it.

Are these emotions protecting anything?

Well the fantasies were always a form of self comfort so yes, but now it's different, I guess in that it's not something I have to work for, it's just there. So now there is also a sense of gratitude, not separate more a mixture.

Ha, seems like some identification. Perhaps give the feeling a hug as if it's your child if it bubbles up again.

I am wondering if I am the hearing/sensation. I am not sure. I'm getting confused again, I will think on it more.

which 'you' are you referring to that can be the hearing/sensation? I am rich, I am a good person, I am this, I am that, I am awareness, I am experience, etc. All this is identification, but experience just is, it doesn't call for any identification.

So we already did a bit of looking here and there, but we didn't see an I yet. What do you think of this? Will one pop up if we keep looking? Could I be just a label with nothing behind it, the same as with 'I see a tree'?

Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

Ha, seems like some identification. Perhaps give the feeling a hug as if it's your child if it bubbles up again.

which 'you' are you referring to that can be the hearing/sensation?

I think you are right about the identification and I will try hugging it in the future, I also think it was spilling over into the hearing exercise yesterday which caused confusion. With all the senses just being experiences that happen they become the same for those reasons and I identified with the same emotion that arose from finding nothing at the senses's "core", misidentified it as me.

I am rich, I am a good person, I am this, I am that, I am awareness, I am experience, etc. All this is identification, but experience just is, it doesn't call for any identification.

Yes

So we already did a bit of looking here and there, but we didn't see an I yet. What do you think of this? Will one pop up if we keep looking? Could I be just a label with nothing behind it, the same as with 'I see a tree'?

It's bizarre that it's so convincing, even after you see the truth. No, surely no I will emerge, hahaha what a joke, still looking for I, because surely I must be something. There is no I to search for, no I to find. It is so inevitable, how didn't I see it?

it doesn't call for any identification

Thanks Floris, what a bender!
B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine!

Your message made me smile.

It's bizarre that it's so convincing, even after you see the truth. No, surely no I will emerge, hahaha what a joke, still looking for I, because surely I must be something. There is no I to search for, no I to find. It is so inevitable, how didn't I see it?

Yes once I saw it my reply was just laughter. It's been no more than a belief all along:)

Thanks Floris, what a bender!

My pleasure!

So how do you feel after seeing this? any doubt remaining?

F

[BBD]

Hi Floris

So how do you feel after seeing this? any doubt remaining?

Well it is liberating, with nothing to seek for what is there? Life will go on the same as before, yet it will never be quite the same. There is no doubt just some emotions that arise (worry that I will lose it again if I don't continue working, not wanting to be alone in this, aimlessness - what do I do now?) but yes when those are looked at it is just what it is.

You were very good at knowing where to go with the questions and I am very grateful. I wonder why you do it though? Knowing what you know. This part in itself is confusing and might in fact be doubt.

You are not doing anything because you do not exist.
Nothing is being done for me because I don't exist.
It is just happening.

See it is still a very deliberate process.

You don't decide to do anything do you? It just happens.

Much thanks
B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine,

Well it is liberating, with nothing to seek for what is there? Life will go on the same as before, yet it will never be quite the same. There is no doubt just some emotions that arise (worry that I will lose it again if I don't continue working, not wanting to be alone in this, aimlessness - what do I do now?) but yes when those are looked at it is just what it is.

Yes that doubt of 'loosing it' is quite common, but don't worry, once you see it it can't be unseen. Every time there is doubt, you just have to look.

You were very good at knowing where to go with the questions and I am very grateful. I wonder why you do it though? Knowing what you know. This part in itself is confusing and might in fact be doubt.

Thank you too. I mostly do it because it feels good.

You are not doing anything because you do not exist.
Nothing is being done for me because I don't exist.
It is just happening.

See it is still a very deliberate process.

After the gate, some people have the tendency to get a bit nihilistic, but this will fade too. Tell a dog who is digging a hole that there is no point in making a hole, that it's pointless.. the dog would just laugh and continue digging. The 'there is nothing to do, there is no doer' doesn't even arise for the dog. It's because there is nothing to do, that you are free to enjoy things.

After gating there is an aftercare group (facebook), it's a place for sharing experiences, etc. Also you can continue looking in another section of the website (called further investigation).

In the end we usually ask some final questions, feel ready for them?:)

wish you, who is not, all the best!
Floris (who is also not)

[BBD]

Hi Floris

It's because there is nothing to do, that you are free to enjoy things.

Yes, you are right, once again pointing exactly at what I needed to see.

After gating there is an aftercare group (facebook), it's a place for sharing experiences, etc. Also you can continue looking in another section of the website (called further investigation).

I would like to do both of these. I would like to stay in the spfere so to speak.

In the end we usually ask some final questions, feel ready for them?:)

Ha, I feel a little like I'm leaving the hotel room and checking that I haven't forgotten anything. But yes at some point you need to leave right? So fire away, I think I packed everything. :)

Cheers,
B

[Florisness]

Yes, you are right, once again pointing exactly at what I needed to see.

Ha, yes, actually it's quite easy since I've gone through the same things. It seems that everybody's path shares (more or less) the same obstacles.

I would like to do both of these. I would like to stay in the spfere so to speak.

sounds like a good idea to me! You'll get a mail for that from an admin a little later.

Ha, I feel a little like I'm leaving the hotel room and checking that I haven't forgotten anything. But yes at some point you need to leave right? So fire away, I think I packed everything. :)

Coming at ya!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Btw, no need to answer them all at once if you don't want.

love,
Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris, hope you are having a good day too.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is that you in any shape or form are separate from anything, anything that can be conceived you are not because you isn't. Not even something that envelops all.
It starts with identification - this I am /this I'm not, which leads to classification - this is good/bad. From then on all things have to fall in a category. Literally self perpetuating - hilarious!
Even once self inquiry has started you are always still looking to find an I, a bigger I, a higher I, a greater I.....wow.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Like stepping into a vacuum,still, everything is different yet nothing changed. A little anticlimactic to be honest.
When I set out I thought there was something to find, the big overall I. All the warnings about what the forum is not for made me think: OK this won't take me all the way but it will be good to focus on no-self, at the time I still saw this as the small personal self.
I also just wanted to busy myself with this field somehow - that has not changed.
Instead of a big I, I found that there is no big I...much to my surprise, but idiotically obvious looking back.
During the process I definitely tried to answer the questions as best I could and some days I became very confused/disoriented and could not say for certain what I was seeing.
Seeing was a difficult exercise because I was fixated on it only being from one point of view, if there was a big I this limitation would not make sense. It is an irrelevant point now though. Feelings were very significant for me, more so than hearing even though I got it only after the hearing part.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Feeling was a big one for me, both physical touching and emotions, physical mostly because it leads to emotional. The emotion that would arise due to the looking is what I previously assumed was the big I, once I saw that this was identification with emotion there were not many places for me to turn. I realized anything that would arise in this way would be false, even awareness, even experience. After that (unbelievably) I still tried to find the big I...and then it dawned on me, I think in the end it was the insistence that I must be something that did it. Being anything in the end is still an I, still an identification.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

None of these are possible, that is part of the illusion of separateness. Even with this inquiry I can't say that I decided to do it, in fact it was contrary to some of the things I believed/thought like: Why would you need other people to do this?
Still, here I am.
I isn't really responsible for anything, it is handy to navigate what's happening.
I honestly don't know what makes things happen, they just do. Also nothing is really happening so it needs no cause.
No idea how it works either. It seems to work, because there seems to be an I.

I will go on with the other question tomorrow. I need to ponder question 5 a bit more too.

Thank you
B

[BBD]

Hi Floris

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I creates the illusion of decision/intention/free will/choice/control by creating separateness, the I then responds to this separateness, enforcing it's separateness. Once no-self is seen, you know nothing is really separate, so it cannot be taken personally and the I is just a concept, so the reaction lessens and separateness fades.
Things aren't really happening they just seem to. Also nothing is really happening so it needs no cause.
It seems to work, because there seems to be an I.

6) Anything to add?

The why of it still puzzles me at times, but I am starting to see this as identification too, the I needs a reason, no I needs no reason.

Thanks a lot
B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine,

Lovely answers!

Asked some of the other guides if they can have a look at our topic.

Will write you back soon :)

[Florisness]

Hello,

Hope you're doing good :)

One of the guides has a question about something you mentioned in Q5.
What is it that is as you say "navigating what is happening"?

And could you give an example(s) of decision/choice/control?

Thank you!

Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

What is it that is as you say "navigating what is happening"?

The I as a concept and how it functions in the world, even typing here is a concept of an I doing something, but nothing is really happening. So the I is in a way a tool, not one that is wielded just a concept of relation. Even though everything that seems to happen, happens at once.

And could you give an example(s) of decision/choice/control?

decision - I quit my job and moved to another country about a year ago, now while I knew for a while that something was coming, in the end I got up one morning and went down a path, the reasoning for why came after the "decision" was made, I think I knew even then that this was just happening. The story came after the fact.

control - It doesn't matter what I have tried to control, finances, people, myself there seems in retrospect to have been an inevitability to it. Like whether I reacted the way I did or not the baseline outcome would have been the same though the route may have varied.

choice - this week I am experiencing a lot of emotions, none of which I chose. Your comment about being free to enjoy things made sense so I enjoyed the pleasant emotions, the pleasant emotions did not last however but now I'm starting to see that I am free to enjoy the unpleasant emotions too.

As for actual choice, that would require 2 things to choose between. I initially wanted to use a dandelion on the wind analogy for control but discarded it because the dandelion and the wind seem to be 2 things but they aren't, just one movement.

These questions are still tough to answer.

Thank you again, and to the other guides.
B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine

These questions are still tough to answer.

yes, but you answered them all nicely. No more questions from the other guides.

You'll soon get a message from an admin, if not than please write me. I'll see you appearing on the FB groups :)

Thank you again, and to the other guides.

It was a pleasure! Thank you too

Floris