Requesting a second chance.

[Ghata]

I am looking Forward to your answer, Mav. :-)

[Mav]

Hello Ghata.

I can't see any hints to a subconscious fear or sadness that would hold you back.

I am pleased and I think since seeing that so much, possibly all is just seen there is really not much room for sadness or worry about this.

In the nondual teachings, "I am awareness, consciousness, presence..." are a term often used. You can check in your own experience. It is not about a personal separate self, but since the word "I" is the same, it sounds as if the illusionary feeling of an I is meant with this.

Thank you. That makes it much clearer.

What is the direct experience of awareness, consciousness, presence?

My concise answer is: I don't know. I don't know how to interpret experience or even what to look at.
I did say I had a lot to say but in reality it boils down to that. I have investigated this a lot but I don't know where to start.

What tells you that you are aware, conscious or present?

I am not aware as I don't exist but there is awareness I think. I was tempted to interpret awareness as 'functioning senses' but in a sensory deprivation tank there would still be awareness of being. Awareness is seen isn't it? Consciousness is perhaps the same thing but we are starting to differentiate between dictionary definitions so things get tough. What is consciousness? In wikipedia it said that 'Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness'. Presence: the state or fact of existing. I cant unravel that one. I don't think you want me to engage in amateur philosophy, so I can tell I am on the wrong track. It's tough. I don't know if I can sort this out.

Direct seeing means being able to tell the difference between the raw sense perceptions and the interpretations. It doesn't mean seeing without thoughts. Whether thoughts are there or not, they are simply part of the experience.

You say tell the difference. I am guessing you don't mean unravel raw sense perceptions from interpretations in a given situation. Just know that the two are different?

You have done a marvellous job of simplifying things when I get in a mess. I think this post shows how confused I am.
Thank you Ghata.

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

you are welcome, Mav :-) it is no problem that you are not clear about the questions, we can clarify things.

What is the direct experience of awareness, consciousness, presence?

My concise answer is: I don't know.

Very good answer :-). It comes directly from experience.

I am not aware as I don't exist but there is awareness I think. I was tempted to interpret awareness as 'functioning senses' but in a sensory deprivation tank there would still be awareness of being. Awareness is seen isn't it? Consciousness is perhaps the same thing but we are starting to differentiate between dictionary definitions so things get tough. What is consciousness? In wikipedia it said that 'Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness'. Presence: the state or fact of existing. I cant unravel that one. I don't think you want me to engage in amateur philosophy, so I can tell I am on the wrong track. It's tough. I don't know if I can sort this out.

As you know, words can point to something that can be directly experienced like a table. They can point to an abstract construct that consists of parts that can be experienced like a school. The school consists out of buildings, students, teachers, classrooms...
And then there are words that don't point to anything that can be experienced. Santa, tooth fairy, Spiderman.

Awareness, consciousness and presence basically stand for the same, they are synonymous.

What can be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted of "awareness"?

You say tell the difference. I am guessing you don't mean unravel raw sense perceptions from interpretations in a given situation. Just know that the two are different?

The moment you can say what the raw sense perception is and what is added by thoughts, you unvelcroed thoughts from sensations. Thoughts will always be there, still the raw sense perception can be noticed.


Lots of love,
Ghata

[Mav]

Hello Ghata,

I am really enjoying this at the moment. We seem to be making very good progress. I am surprised that you nearly always understand what I mean, even if I think I am being vague.

What can be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted of "awareness"?

As it is not possible to see, hear, touch, smell or taste awareness itself, I can answer your question. The answer is, nothing.
I am tempted to say awareness is an example of a word that you described here:-

They can point to an abstract construct that consists of parts that can be experienced like a school. The school consists out of buildings, students, teachers, classrooms...

However my thoughts go back to the sensory deprivation tank.
I have not been in one, but I guess you would hear your heart, breathing etc; feel your chest rise and fall and be aware of thoughts, so you would not be without some input for your senses. However, what if you had no input including no thoughts. Would there be an awareness of being? Or would it be like dreamless sleep? Unconscious. Or something else? I don't know the answer.

The moment you can say what the raw sense perception is and what is added by thoughts, you unvelcroed thoughts from sensations. Thoughts will always be there, still the raw sense perception can be noticed.

Very clear. Thank you.

Best wishes,
Mav.

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

great that you are enjoying the inquiry :-)

As it is not possible to see, hear, touch, smell or taste awareness itself, I can answer your question. The answer is, nothing. I am tempted to say awareness is an example of a word that you described here:-

They can point to an abstract construct that consists of parts that can be experienced like a school. The school consists out of buildings, students, teachers, classrooms...

Right, the word "awareness" points to nothing that could be perceived with the senses.

What are the components of awareness that can be experienced directly?

However, what if you had no input including no thoughts. Would there be an awareness of being? Or would it be like dreamless sleep? Unconscious. Or something else? I don't know the answer.

Very good question. I think, like all words, the word "awareness" can be easily misunderstood. It is a noun, so it sounds as if awareness is a thing. Awareness is not a thing. I prefer to call it knowing. Knowing the sense experience and knowing that there is no sense experience incl. thoughts. Yes, it is possible that only knowing is present without any content, only the knowing being known.

It happens in certain meditation states and can also be watched during deep sleep, if you gain access to that. Otherwise, when just waking up is a good time to catch the moments of still no content being there, yet the knowing of having woken up is present.

Please ask everything that is still unclear.

Sending love,
Ghata

[Mav]

Hello Ghata,

What are the components of awareness that can be experienced directly?

The senses and thought. Observing the content of thoughts is a direct experience, but the content of thoughts themselves are not direct experience.

Yes, it is possible that only knowing is present without any content, only the knowing being known.

 

Awareness is not a thing. I prefer to call it knowing.

Is this knowing simply a component of thought, essentially a thought of sorts?


With my question above you can see that I am still exploring and a little unsure of some of the finer points but what you have helped me to see and understand so far has begun to have a life of its own.
All the thoughts and the senses are seen. Now that there is some clarity I find that there is no effort in looking. There often seems to be an 'I' behind all of this but when that is noticed it automatically becomes just seen like everything else. Even this process is seen. The little bits of 'me', the feelings and thoughts, are exposed for what they are. This is not a permanent state of course, but it can be tapped into at will and sometimes it happens without a conscious intent to explore.

Thank you,
Mav.

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

What are the components of awareness that can be experienced directly?

The senses and thought. Observing the content of thoughts is a direct experience, but the content of thoughts themselves are not direct experience.

Right :-)
The word awareness is a construct like the word school. The components, sense experience and thoughts, can be experienced directly. Awareness as an object does not exist.

Is this knowing simply a component of thought, essentially a thought of sorts?

To me it is simply a function of being conscious. Being conscious in an everyday sense comes with knowing sense experiences and thoughts. It is certainly not a thought.

All the thoughts and the senses are seen. Now that there is some clarity I find that there is no effort in looking. There often seems to be an 'I' behind all of this but when that is noticed it automatically becomes just seen like everything else. Even this process is seen. The little bits of 'me', the feelings and thoughts, are exposed for what they are. This is not a permanent state of course, but it can be tapped into at will and sometimes it happens without a conscious intent to explore.

Beautiful, Mav. I love to read that there is no effort in looking any longer. It is normal that it is not a permanent state.

When you compare how life is experienced these days with how it was when you started the inquiry, did anything change?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Mav]

Hello Ghata,
I cannot say with honesty that I understand awareness, consciousness etc. I feel very much out of my depth. Thank you for trying to explain it. I understand much of what you said but I can't bring it all together. I will think about it more.

It is obvious now that I had an illusion of an 'I' that was self contained. I am not religious so my 'I' illusion 'was not a product or pawn of a deity and my place in the universe was not a part of the illusion either. However, now I find that there are no parameters. I don't know what is going on. I don't have a clue, so it is not possible for me to totally dismiss the possibility of something that could be seen as an 'I'. It may not matter as this is contemplative, whereas the 'I' was an assumption that had consequences, a 'functioning' illusion.

It is possible to say that 'I' don't exist because the illusion that was labelled 'I' has been revealed. A speculative 'I' somewhere out there does not have much value perhaps? I hope that the shadow of a possible 'I' does not harm this process. It can't be an 'I' that controls thought, movement and the senses. I am sure of that. Mav is something seen.

When you compare how life is experienced these days with how it was when you started the inquiry, did anything change?

Yes, there are some changes. Most of the time there is no discernible difference, but there is a different attitude to life. In the past I yearned for some kind of solid foundation in my thinking. Everything seemed to be speculative and I was weary of that. Now if I think about myself, I know that there is in fact no self and that is just the kind of foundation for thought that I wanted. Questions like, “what kind of person am I”are viewed very differently. I can let go a bit.

The other thing is that sometimes thoughts and sensations seem to be played out as if they were in a film. I can get lost in the film but I can 'snap out of it' anytime I wish. It is like meditation except a lot easier. It is a lot easier to be present whilst doing day to day activities. Seeing aspects of the 'I' illusion is fun now, whereas before it was a confusing mess. It's possible to enjoy that feeling of seeing rather than doing.

Life is still tough and challenging and I am still full of doubt and confusion about the stuff you and I are working on together. It hasn't changed things radically, but what has happened is fascinating and valuable. I can see how the self illusion will be eroded further with this. It is already changing. I love to look at those things that strongly suggest an 'I'. Rather than get caught up in them (this still happens) I can see them as clever, complex rather beautifully constructed illusions. It's a bit like admiring the set design in a play. What is great is that there is no need to pick away at them. If the illusion is strong then there is seeing something that is strong. When there is only 'seeing' it is always as it is. That's all. It is no longer a convincing illusion. In itself it is radical, but it's effect on life has not been so far. I am interested and excited to see what lies ahead.

Best wishes and thanks,
Mav.

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

it is lovely to hear what changed for you :-)

It is possible to say that 'I' don't exist because the illusion that was labelled 'I' has been revealed. A speculative 'I' somewhere out there does not have much value perhaps? I hope that the shadow of a possible 'I' does not harm this process. It can't be an 'I' that controls thought, movement and the senses. I am sure of that. Mav is something seen.

I suggest that you stick to what can actually be experienced. Everything else is speculative thought and the content of that is never real.

Can this speculative "I" out there be experienced or is it thought content only?

Code: Select all

Rather than get caught up in them (this still happens) I can see them as clever, complex rather beautifully constructed illusions.

Lovely.

When going through your day, find out how the illusion of an entity "I" that thinks, acts, experiences is created and held up. You can find out while looking into the direct experience of each moment.

Sending love,
Ghata

[Mav]

Hello Ghata,

I have to take a long trip tomorrow so I probably won't able to post anything. The hotel I am going to says it has WiFi. I would be unlucky if it were as bad as last time, so hopefully I will get back to you on Saturday.

Your questions have already provoked some knee jerk responses but I will 'look' properly whilst traveling and give you better answers.

It's difficult to say how grateful I am to you Ghata. It has been great doing this.

Bye for now.
Mav.

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

don't worry about the WIFI. I know that you will keep looking. :)

All the best to you,
Ghata

[Mav]

Hello Ghata,
I do have working internet here but I could not contact you yesterday. Before I left home I printed out your questions and kept looking at them throughout the day. I often wish I had time to just look however the challenges of the day do offer many situations to look at.

Can this speculative "I" out there be experienced or is it thought content only?

Yes I can see that speculation is counter to everything we are doing here. My issue is that I cannot be sure there is no experience beyond the senses. It seems like a foolish thing to say. I realise that, but it is also an easy assumption to make. I can attempt to pick apart each moment but all that can be done is to pick on individual elements and look at them. I can never see the full picture. I don't want to get too bogged down in this, but it does create nagging doubts.

When going through your day, find out how the illusion of an entity "I" that thinks, acts, experiences is created and held up. You can find out while looking into the direct experience of each moment.

I think that if your told me that bananas were not called bananas anymore, I would still recognise them as bananas. I have seen what has be going on as me all my life. It takes constant reassessment to challenge that.
When there are strong emotions I look with interest at the 'I' in that and notice that it is not possible to simply know that they are seen. When the emotions are strong they are difficult to look at purely objectively. What tends to happen is that they are recognised as seen. There is a feeling of detachment and a realisation that a fragment is still being taken 'personally'.
From looking during the last few days I have realised that experience itself has a strong hold. When hearing for example there is just hearing but I initially assume a hearer, a do-er. I have to consciously remember to mop it up, and there is always doubt that there is not an experiencer. I can see that hearing presents itself as one thing. It is not divided into hearing, hearer and heard, but there is also a strong awareness that I don't actually know what is going on and I don't want to make assumptions. I can say what isn't, but not what is. We are getting into awareness territory and as I have explained, I don't understand it. I understand what you meant when you said it was not an object but I cannot see that clearly from direct experience. There seems to be something, but I don't know how to look at it. I can see how this issue may have arose from years of assuming an experiencer but it could be something else?

Thanks for staying with me Ghata.
Mav.

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

great that you are looking despite of the difficult circumstances :-)

I can never see the full picture. I don't want to get too bogged down in this, but it does create nagging doubts.

If you can never see the full picture - is there a full picture at all?

I have seen what has be going on as me all my life. It takes constant reassessment to challenge that.

True! When it is fully seen through though, you don't need to reassess continuously any longer, just as little as you need to reassess that there is no Santa.

When hearing for example there is just hearing but I initially assume a hearer, a do-er.

Yes. And then listen to the sound again, without the name tag on it. Is there hearing and the heard or only hearing?

Where does the sound end and the hearer begin?
Where does the seen end and the seer begin?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Mav]

Hello Ghata,

great that you are looking despite of the difficult circumstances :-)

Thank you Ghata, it's good to do something positive.

If you can never see the full picture - is there a full picture at all?

I have taken this to be something to consider rather than answer. If I answered it I would say, I don't know. However I thought about this for a while. I realised that there would always be doubts and questions so I would not be able to anything about that. Doubts will automatically be there if you don't know something. Before awakening all people must have had doubts. When looking, just looking, there are no questions. All experience is seen. Would it be enough to just look as much as possible? Would it matter that there are doubts, as this does not make any difference when just looking? Doubts are questions which are thoughts. They exist in the world of thought not in the world of looking. Am I on to something? Does it matter if there are doubts if I realise that they are thoughts?

Yes. And then listen to the sound again, without the name tag on it. Is there hearing and the heard or only hearing? 
Where does the sound end and the hearer begin?
Where does the seen end and the seer begin?

In my post I wrote,

It is not divided into hearing, hearer and heard,

I wonder if there is more to it than I realised? When hearing, it appears as one thing. If 'looking' at all experience (including hearing) it appears to be just looking. I have been talking about my concerns around this and that hearing as in all the senses can carry the 'I' illusion in them. Although I have seen through that, the illusion continues. I think you know what I mean?
I am wondering if just looking as an exercise is a good idea? Just to clarify. I am not supposed to be understanding something so completely that I can say, 'I get it!' am I?

Just to warn you, tomorrow I will be travelling all day. I will probably not have a chance to answer, but I will look before I go to bed tonight to see if you have responded (no pressure) and I will consider what you said during that day.

Thank you Ghata. I always look forward to your posts.
Mav

[Ghata]

Hi Mav,

Yes, you're into something. :)

I realised that there would always be doubts and questions so I would not be able to anything about that. Doubts will automatically be there if you don't know something. Before awakening all people must have had doubts. When looking, just looking, there are no questions. All experience is seen. Would it be enough to just look as much as possible? Would it matter that there are doubts, as this does not make any difference when just looking? Doubts are questions which are thoughts. They exist in the world of thought not in the world of looking.

Right, doubts are the content of thoughts. Is the content of thoughts ever real?

Thoughts come up with this or that content. Thinking about your stepdaughter or doubting what is seen. Or dreaming of a nice long holiday. All is okay.

When you think of your stepdaughter, you know very well that she isn't in the room. When you dream of holidays, you know very well, that you are not on holidays.

How come you think there is an 'I' When doubting thouts come up, though you clearly can't see it?

It is not divided into hearing, hearer and heard,

I wonder if there is more to it than I realised?

No, there isn't. It is that simple.

Although I have seen through that, the illusion continues. I think you know what I mean?

Could you please elaborate?

Just to clarify. I am not supposed to be understanding something so completely that I can say, 'I get it!' am I?

Right. You are supposed to be *looking* until you can say, 'I am certain.'

Sending love,
Ghata