Assistance wanted

[Ghata]

Beautiful, Tom :-)

Right, reflecting, choosing, thinking and decisions still take place.

There is nobody who does it though.


Can you give me a big fat YES, that there no I or self experiencing, thinking, choosing, acting? How does it feel to give this answer?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Tbarnes]

YES! :) my issue was thinking you were suggesting there was no choice or reflection, but I see you were just pointing, making me look. The choices are not mine but there are choices. Reflection happens but it is not my reflection.

[Ghata]

Hi Tom,

YES! :)

Lovely :)

The choices are not mine but there are choices. Reflection happens but it is not my reflection.

Right.

Is anything left unclear or do you have any questions?

When you look back to the beginning of the dialogue, what changed and what stayed the same?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Tbarnes]

I am not filled with questions.
At the beginning of the dialogue i seemed to be caught up in justification and was deflecting the enquiry with analyses rather than what I actually experienced. In the beginning there was resistance.
So in terms of change, there is a relaxing around looking at thought(including that of self), sounds etc and accepting them as they are. Experience is what is being experienced, there is no experiencer. I did try to appropriate these thoughts, sounds etc but as the weeks go by i notice that in experience I turn towards the experience and cut out the monologue or possession of these stimuli.
What has stayed the same??
Well I still have thoughts! Inner monologue occurs, life goes on (not that it is the same).
But you have certainly aided me in seeing the nature of experience.
There has been a great deal of enjoyment and also mental tension on my part, so thank you.

[Ghata]

Lovely, Tom :-)

Would you say you are still seeking or is the search over?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Tbarnes]

I choose to awaken as much as possible. As far as the self is concerned, I feel I see the truth. The search is over for the self!
I have one question
When I spoke before of the views of self and no self both being wrong views in Buddhism, what is your view?

[Ghata]

Very good, Tom.

There will be more opportunities to see through all illusions in Facebook groups.

When I spoke before of the views of self and no self both being wrong views in Buddhism, what is your view?

This is a question you can now answer yourself. What is the "self" and why is it neither a self nor not a self?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Tbarnes]

Haha, I don't do facebook. That's a bit to much ego projection for me (not everyone).
There is no self so there cannot be one and there is not no self as our mind produces ideas of self.

[Ghata]

Hi Tom,

didn't you know? Facebook is the new monastery =D.

There is no self so there cannot be one and there is not no self as our mind produces ideas of self.

Yess. There are ideas of self, not a self or a no self. The idea of self is empty.

If you don't have any further questions, are you ready for our final questions? They are pointers in disguise, and the opportunity to look whether anything is left unclear.

Sending love,
Ghata

[Tbarnes]

Sounds good :)

[Ghata]

Great, here they are.
Please answer from first-hand experience and in your own words.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you’). What are you responsible for?

6) Anything to add? (This is the place where sometimes uncensored stream-of-consciousness, exhuberent outbursts about what this whole thing feels like, are par for the course, and largely a good idea really!)

[Tbarnes]

1) there is no separate self, I, me and there has never been one.
2)the illusion of a separate self is a construct of the mind. It claims experience as its own and tells a story or narrative to make sense of life. This is a delusion. The separate self try's to own thoughts and sensations but these experiences are as they are and cannot be owned. The self is a persistent thought that occuRs but is of no more relevance than an itch or a thought.
3) I feel I answered this, there has been a noticeable difference in day to day experience. Reflective moments that occur reminding that there is no self and not to get caught up in a narrative. There have been moments of deep realisation and an ongoing permeation of experience in general which is deeply refreshing.there in undoubtably a difference in experience for me, it is not drastic but I see much clearer now the true nature of self.
4) questioning decisions and ethics really got me working. Being asked who decides to do something and who enagages in ethics and how are they engaged with. These questions deeply affected me. There was strong identity and ownership of these ethics.
5) I'll answer the rest soon,

[Tbarnes]

5) There is choice, choosing. But there is no one making the decision. It is not my choice however it is a choice. Control can be exerted. There is not an I in control. For instance my son needs a bath, there is a decision based on care, kindness, duty, obligation, other concepts and thoughts that arise. There is a decision to go run the bath. Perhaps an inevitable outcome, perhaps not(can't know that). Choice has been taken to give a bath. In relative terms I am going to give my son a bath. Ultimately conditions coincided that he is now having a bath and there was influence exerted to create those conditions.
The dog needs a walk (this is a projection but seems likely!). Based on past experience and a duty of care and sense of enjoyments, there is a decision to go out and walk her.
If in life one exerts control, makes decisions, sets and follows intentions, then there lies responsibility. Not that I am responsible as there is no I. But there is an engagement in suffering and the end of it, this intention to do 'good' comes with responsibility for the actions and thoughts that predicate or follow. One does not own actions or thoughts but without responsibility for them and acceptance of their effects then where would we be.
6) speaking in the first person!! ;)
My mind feels cler at this time and attentive to projections I am making around my life. This insight into my life has started to seep into life and how I interact with other. There is a calmer side coming through that is not grasping for control and appropriating experience as much. My mental processes have much to develop but this foundation is a firm and liberating one.
Onwards on the path for me (not me) and if I can point a few others in this direction to see that they are not others then that'd be great.

[Ghata]

Hi Tom,

thank you for your answers :-).

I'd like to look into some in more detail.

3) I see much clearer now the true nature of self.

Just to be sure, what is the true nature of self?

5)

Ultimately conditions coincided that he is now having a bath and there was influence exerted to create those conditions.

Describe how influence was exerted to create the conditions, so in the end your son had the bath.

Not that I am responsible as there is no I. But there is an engagement in suffering and the end of it, this intention to do 'good' comes with responsibility for the actions and thoughts that predicate or follow. One does not own actions or thoughts but without responsibility for them and acceptance of their effects then where would we be.

Have a look at the word responsibility. What is the direct experience of what is labelled "responsibility"? Does responsibility exist as such?

Sending love,
Ghata

[Tbarnes]

The self is an delusion. It is not a thing. Just a thought in a stream of thoughts. A persistent one enforced by language.
Influenced was exerted in that I ran the bath, took him to it. There were actions that effected reality.
Responsibility is a concept. A word. The direct experience is there is no one responsible. It's is a collection of thoughts. There is responding to stimulus but not a responder!