Would be grateful for a guide

[Alexw]

The funny thing is that I think I'm starting to slowly (very slowly) accept that's it's ok if I never understand it, since this "I" is made up anyway :-)

Yes, true... There can be a certain understanding present, but there is no owner of it... It doesn't belong to a "you", just like the sound of rain doesn't belong to anyone...
Still, understanding that all acquired interpretation is not ultimate truth has its effects. The understanding will kind of remove the urgency to understand...

All I'm saying (repeatedly, to the point of risking your patience...) is that the ability to transcend suffering is the only measure I'm willing to accept for understanding the truth of things.

Thats ok, it not a bad thing to have a firm goal in mind. It provides the necessary momentum and drive to inquire :-)
So... how do you transcend suffering? Well... first you have to find it and nail it down, then and only then can it be transcended. You have to know and see what you are up against to overcome it, right? Agree?

The logical first step is thus to find this "suffering" otherwise you will never be able to overcome it. There is only one way to find it: To look for it. Thinking about it and finding a thought based solution is not good enough - you know that by now. You have to find it. So where do you look? Or rather how do you look? What tools can you use?
Well, again we find that all that you have at your disposal are the five senses plus thought.
1) Can you find suffering in any of the senses? Even if there is discomfort, like when having a cold shower or when sitting in mediation, is the sensation itself "discomfort" or even "suffering"? Or is this only an interpretation, a thought about the sensation? I am sure you know by now that pure sense information doesn't contain any such information as "this is suffering", right? So it has to be hidden somewhere in/as thought, right? Can it be anything else?
2) Lets assume suffering is some kind of a thought-process. First we have to find out if thought itself can suffer... Can it? How would it do that? Or is there maybe a thought-process that is the suffering..? If so, then you should be able to find it, no? Please look for it. When discomfort seems to be present, please find the discomfort itself. Where is it? What is it?

To overcome "suffering" you have to look. Look again and again when you meditate etc and find the suffering itself. If there is no such thing as suffering then can it really be happening?

I know, from the normal, personal point of view this sounds crazy. If something really bad happens then I am suffering - at least that is what society seems to tell and even demand from us. But maybe its all not true..? Maybe there is no such thing as suffering at all? How do you overcome a mirage?

[placebo8]

It's been a while again. I try to contemplate the things you point to every day, no measurable change yet ("measured by who?" you might rightfully ask...). There's a feeling of having maxed out the logical understanding and being stuck there. Perhaps the indoctrination of what is real has been extremely effective in my case, and perhaps there are levels that are deeply rooted of which I'm unaware. The general mood is one of "too tired to fight, but not intending to give up"

I am sure you know by now that pure sense information doesn't contain any such information as "this is suffering", right? So it has to be hidden somewhere in/as thought, right? Can it be anything else?

I guess not. There are there video clips on YouTube that show an amoeba eating paramecia. It plays like a horror movie and one automatically projects that the paramecia are horribly suffering as they seem to be struggling in a panic to find a way out of the engulfing amoeba while being digested alive. Though I can't prove it, I assume they are "suffering" just as much as an animated character in a computer game is suffering - it's just a process playing out. Then again, there's "no one home" there to register or know the sensations either, as thought is necessary for that - there can be no separate perceiver without it.

Lets assume suffering is some kind of a thought-process. First we have to find out if thought itself can suffer... Can it?

For that, I'd have to ask how is a thought-process different from any other sensation? I think the difference is the self reflection of thought. Sensations are happening and then thought adds the "it's happening to me", "I want it", "I don't want it". The thing is, if it was just "a thought" then it could be easily seen for what it is. It's difficult for me to pinpoint it, but I'd say the convincing part is the entanglement of consciousness - the knowing raw is-ness - with the contents of the thought which makes it so convincing as to breath life into a separate I that supposedly feels it.

To overcome "suffering" you have to look. Look again and again when you meditate etc and find the suffering itself. If there is no such thing as suffering then can it really be happening?

Truth be told, I've been skipping mediation (at least the type where I sit motionless for an hout) for a quite a while now. I didn't feel the wisdom gained was proportional to the investment. I know spirituality is not a business but it's difficult to do something when it doesn't seem to deliver the goods. Can't bring myself to stop the daily reminders though - it's as though I'm taking time off for a while...

[Alexw]

Then again, there's "no one home" there to register or know the sensations either, as thought is necessary for that - there can be no separate perceiver without it.

Really? Do you find that thought is required to register sensations? I would agree that it is required to interpret them, but the sensation can exist very well without thought, can't it?

For that, I'd have to ask how is a thought-process different from any other sensation? I think the difference is the self reflection of thought.

Yes, in a way. Look at this self reflection in some detail. How does it work?
What is thought reflecting?

The thing is, if it was just "a thought" then it could be easily seen for what it is. It's difficult for me to pinpoint it, but I'd say the convincing part is the entanglement of consciousness - the knowing raw is-ness - with the contents of the thought which makes it so convincing as to breath life into a separate I that supposedly feels it.

Raw is-ness or consciousness can never be entangled in thought. Which one is prior, being/consciousness or thought? Which one knows about the other?
Composing a story about something called consciousness is not the same as knowing it, is it?

Whenever the belief "I feel it" or "I see it" arises, remind yourself that this is not true. Look for the I that sees or feels - you won't be able to find it. Trust in what you (don't) find, in pure seeing or feeling, and reject the idea that there needs to be a separate I to be responsible for any of that - it doesn't correspond with experience, it never did, so simply see this and reject all other interpretations.

[placebo8]

Really? Do you find that thought is required to register sensations? I would agree that it is required to interpret them, but the sensation can exist very well without thought, can't it?

What I meant was that thought is required to register them as "my sensations" and to generate the interpretation that "I am conscious now, but this consciousness is temporary" instead of seeing consciousness is eternal and this "I" belief is temporary.

Raw is-ness or consciousness can never be entangled in thought.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "entangled" as it doesn't really capture what I mean. My point is that the story appears real because of consciousness. The undeniable experience of "I know this is happening" requires an element of consciousness. The same goes for the undeniable experience of "I know I don't want this". No matter how ignorant that knowing is, or how wrong the interpretation, consciousness is what brings the interpretation to life - *knowing* the interpretation couldn't exist otherwise, and with this knowing comes the belief in it's truth. If it was so obvious to see the story for what it is despite the convincing experience, there would be no need for this correspondence...

Which one is prior, being/consciousness or thought? Which one knows about the other?
Composing a story about something called consciousness is not the same as knowing it, is it?

I think I'm quite convinced that consciousness is prior, though even the term prior is already a concept in thought territory (just like the concept of consciousness, which is not the same as consciousness)

Whenever the belief "I feel it" or "I see it" arises, remind yourself that this is not true. Look for the I that sees or feels - you won't be able to find it.

having just caught the flu, I'm after a long and quite uncomfortable night. In fact, there's an experience of an I feeling quite miserable as this is being written, an experience of gasping for air once in a while due to congestion, and no comfort in knowing none of this is happening to me or that this "me" is a fabricated story. The "In your face reality" of the story just seems much stronger than the capacity to see beyond it.

[Alexw]

How is the flu going? I hope you are feeling better by now.

In fact, there's an experience of an I feeling quite miserable as this is being written, an experience of gasping for air once in a while due to congestion, and no comfort in knowing none of this is happening to me or that this "me" is a fabricated story.

I guess you know what my reply will be... there is no I that can feel miserable, no I that is gasping for air etc etc...
Still, feeling miserable is happening, gasping for air is happening... I believe you see that all this happening without a separate self suffering from it, but the issue is that the sensations are still being labelled as "miserable" or "uncomfortable"... So one might ask: what's the benefit of seeing that there is no self/I that feels miserable if the miserable feeling is still the same..? It is ownerless, but it is still experienced as miserable... Does this describe whats going on?

This is a staged process. The first stage is to see that these feelings are ownerless. The next step is to see that there really is nothing like suffering, discomfort or feeling miserable. These are simply interpretations of experience that is always neutral. Deeply understanding this will not remove all pain or a runny nose, but it removes the mental suffering.
Utilize the sickness to stay with the physical sensation alone, do this as much as possible and you will see how the suffering is not physical. You might even find some beauty hidden inside of these sensations... Look deeply.

[placebo8]

How is the flu going? I hope you are feeling better by now.

Better, thanks :-) It wasn't my intention to complain about having the flu though - I've been through worse and many people have been through (and are going through) much worse than the worst I've ever been - it was just a irritating reminder of how little it takes to be pulled into a self belief even when it is known to be false.

I guess you know what my reply will be... there is no I that can feel miserable, no I that is gasping for air etc etc...

Yes, you guessed correctly, and I also know you are right in your reply. It's bridging the gap between agreeing with what you say and actually knowing what you say that's proving to be very challenging.

It is ownerless, but it is still experienced as miserable... Does this describe whats going on?

I don't know. If I'd really be able to see it as ownerless, then perhaps it couldn't be experienced as miserable. It's a dynamic sort of understanding too - sometimes "getting it" feels closer, sometimes distant (like when I'm worried about never "getting it", never being at peace). This "thinker" is also worried about how any clarity can be swiftly removed by discomfort/desire, which then raises serious doubts about the clarity.

Utilize the sickness to stay with the physical sensation alone, do this as much as possible and you will see how the suffering is not physical. You might even find some beauty hidden inside of these sensations... Look deeply.

There's not a day when I don't try to do this, whether it's when having the flu or other (mainly uncomfortable, as they are easier to detect) situations, but it's easy to get lost and there's always this nagging thought that I'm not trying hard enough, that it takes far more commitment than what I'm currently doing to unlearn so much belief that has taken such deep roots.

[Alexw]

Yes, it seemingly takes time to unlearn, to see through beliefs and for behavioural patterns to change.
This will never stop. Change will always be on the surface, just like waves are on the ocean.
They can be distracting, I agree. But the more you look the more you will see the water underneath, the knowing that's always there.

Don't worry about experiences, they are as they are, good or bad, they don't need to change...
You don't even need to change your interpretation of experience - as long as you try to change interpretations based on logical understanding you are just replacing one idea with another one. Simply see that they are all just ideas and come back to the knowing of these ideas.

How? First by taking the position as observer or witness and somewhen even this idea will leave you. It will make no more sense as the observer and the observed are clearly seen to be one. This can not be willed or pushed, it happens naturally - it already happens many times each day - you just overlook it. It happens when you don't look as a separate self. When there is only looking. Do you see how all effort will forever keep you (seemingly) from something that you are never separate from in the first place? What a better place to hide then everywhere?

You only look for it because you believe in the idea that you don't see it (or already have it)... just stop looking for something, stop looking for an object and... there it is! Do you see?

[placebo8]

You only look for it because you believe in the idea that you don't see it (or already have it)... just stop looking for something, stop looking for an object and... there it is! Do you see?

I'm going through a pessimistic stage right now so not only don't I see it, but also believe I never will, that the game is rigged and that it's my destined role to play a believer in the illusion of a separate self until the last day of this body/mind combination.

Yes, I'll be the first to admit this is just another idea and not the truth, just as suffering when being burned alive is just an idea and not the truth, but the way I see it, truth is totally irrelevant when access to it can remain only theoretical for the perceived individual.

I guess this experience could be another opportunity to see through the story, but I feel too involved and too tired to make more efforts at the moment to try and see it right now. Perhaps this is some mild form of depression - whatever the case, I feel I'd be wasting your time attempting to make any sort of breakthrough while stuck in its influence.

[Alexw]

Hi,

Sorry for the long break. Have been pretty busy...
How are you? Are you feeling any better?

How about we have a bit of a break in our discussion.
Maybe until early next year...
Might be good to let things flow and observe without pressure, just enjoying the festive time of the year.

Alex

[placebo8]

Hi Alex,

How about we have a bit of a break in our discussion.

No pressure, a break at this point would make sense as it seems that my current state is "pedal to the metal but car is in neutral", more commonly known as treading water...

Enjoy the holidays - by the way, don't want to spoil it for you, but you should know Santa's not real ;-)

Will be happy to pick it up again if and when you feel the time is right

All the best,
Amnon

[Alexw]

Hi Amnon,

Thank you.
Wishing you a relaxing time off.

Regards
Alex

[placebo8]

Hi Alex,

It's been a while since we last corresponded, in which time there were more insights and glimpses into what you were trying to point me to. I'd be happy to continue, whether with you or another guide. In any case, thanks again for your patience and all the time you invested in trying to show me the elusive obvious...

Amnon