Deconstructing the self

[Alexw]

Hi,

Some great observations there! Well done!

The senses work on their own & display direct information with no doer. A great way to examine this is also: if 'I' control the senses, why can't I prevent stimuli from entering?

Yes, great inquiry!

In my opinion, the attachment to the 'I'/self is what has to be seen through in order for one to stop defending points of view. When the i/self is truly, viscerally seen to be a fiction, a mere habit, then why would anyone even take points of view seriously or defend them?

Ok... so what exactly do you think has not yet been "viscerally seen" about this separate self?
What is missing so that this understanding becomes a natural realisation? Where do you still feel that this I/self is alive and kicking?

Having a point of view is no proof for the belief in a separate self being existing/not-existing. You can still have points of view and beliefs even the belief in the separate self is gone, can't you?
As I have mentioned before, seeing through the separate self will not automatically eradicate all ego based reactivity (like defending a point of view etc etc), but it will lay the foundation for further inquiries that can dismantle them.

I will make these observations & report back to you.

Yes, please look and observe how this grasping/defending of ingrained beliefs works in daily life. I am looking forward to hearing what you have found.

Alex

[MoonChild625]

Hi Alex,

Ok... so what exactly do you think has not yet been "viscerally seen" about this separate self?
What is missing so that this understanding becomes a natural realisation? Where do you still feel that this I/self is alive and kicking?

It has to be repeatedly looked at to see/know no-self. There hasn't been a shift in perspective that is lived from automatically. There are still reactions to perceived threats, & desires to learn certain skills. Anger still arises frequently. I know intellectually that it's not there. Analysis proves it, and when thoughts arise, feelings of anger, feelings of defensiveness arise, they in themselves do not contain 'self'. They are not 'i' or 'mine'. It's just not an automatic lived perspective.

Having a point of view is no proof for the belief in a separate self being existing/not-existing. You can still have points of view and beliefs even the belief in the separate self is gone, can't you?
As I have mentioned before, seeing through the separate self will not automatically eradicate all ego based reactivity (like defending a point of view etc etc), but it will lay the foundation for further inquiries that can dismantle them.

Points of view, are just what they are. However, if they are still arising in the kind of reactivity that gives rise to unskillful actions/suffering, then what's the point of doing this work? If there's no freedom from the prison of reactivity, then what are we hoping to accomplish here?

If this is meant to be ongoing inquiry, then I'll keep drilling down with that, if that's what it takes.

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi,

Points of view, are just what they are. However, if they are still arising in the kind of reactivity that gives rise to unskillful actions/suffering, then what's the point of doing this work? If there's no freedom from the prison of reactivity, then what are we hoping to accomplish here?

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self does not automatically remove all "reactivity that gives rise to unskillful actions/suffering". I know there might be the expectation that this should be so, and maybe for a few this is also the case, but judging from experience this only happens maybe for 1 in a million... For most it is a gradual process and seeing through the belief in a separate self is only step one.
Its a bit like seeing through the belief in Santa... even after you have seen that Santa is not real you can still get upset if he doesn't bring you a present...
Seeing through the beliefs that lead to ego-based reactivity is normally another step in the process whereas seeing through the belief in a separate self first greatly increases the success rate of this next step. After breaking this reactivity it still is not over, there are a few more steps to take before the path itself vanishes...

Anyway, "reactions to perceived threats, & desires to learn certain skills" are not a bad thing at all. It is only an issue if the threat/desire is primarily an ego-based one... When you perceive the threat of starving from having not eaten for some time, then you will naturally look for food... We thus have to be careful to not overdo it as reactivity should be replaced by natural responsiveness which again is a perfectly normal mechanism.

The inquiry that we started earlier, with you looking at a statement that leads to a certain negative reactivity (eg "Why does/do he/she/they repeat the same f*cking comments about so & so every time I'm here? I've heard it all 1000 times") is the first step in an inquiry that can weaken and dissolve this kind of reactivity - but at the time you seemed to be not ready for this inquiry as you believed that you still had more to see regarding the illusory nature of the separate self... and that is also perfectly fine, there is always more to see...

So... your decision... we can inquire some more into the illusory nature of the self by looking at perception and thoughts about what is being perceived or we advance to this "emotional aspect" of the self... but as you might have already seen before, this is not the most comfortable exploration as physical sensations will show up that are unwanted, that one wants to avoid...

Sorry that this inquiry is not a silver bullet that removes all suffering in one single **bang**, but hey, it took half a lifetime to built this house of cards that you are living in, so give it a few months to dismantle it...

Alex

[MoonChild625]

Hi Alex,

So... your decision... we can inquire some more into the illusory nature of the self by looking at perception and thoughts about what is being perceived or we advance to this "emotional aspect" of the self... but as you might have already seen before, this is not the most comfortable exploration as physical sensations will show up that are unwanted, that one wants to avoid...

Sorry that this inquiry is not a silver bullet that removes all suffering in one single **bang**, but hey, it took half a lifetime to built this house of cards that you are living in, so give it a few months to dismantle it...

Alex

I would like to continue looking by examining the "emotional aspect" of the "self". I don't care about discomfort/dealing with physical sensations. I've been through enough discomfort in life, so I can get through more. Especially the type of discomfort that's going to reveal whatever is being overlooked on the inquiry to deconstructing the self/selfing habits.

I apologize if I seem impatient. I don't expect a silver bullet, however, I've been involved with a few things for quite some time on this process to uproot the perception of self. I've been through Zen with it's mindf*ck koan approach, then Tibetan Buddhism, with it's reliance on fancy decor/costumes, mega-rituals & over-analysis/scholasticism. Most recently, I've resonated with the pared-down approach of Theravada Buddhism & some Advaita inquiry. Over the past few years, I've had a few glimpses into no-self. Once, I was left laughing aloud for a few days. A few times, I was driving & the "driver" wasn't there, just everything else in clarity. A few other times, I was conversing one-on-one with different people & I faded away while they remained. All wonderfully freeing! The most drastic experience was an incident when I knew that no-one but the brain/mind & body were running the show, and "MoonChild625" was a projection of their activity/aliveness. That day, I walked around literally sick to my stomach.

So, while in this case we've just begun this inquiry together, it's been going on for me for several years. And, you are absolutely correct: It took many years to build this character & it may take a few more to dismantle it. I just have to remind myself of this.

I'm very grateful for your time & willingness to assist with all of this.

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi,

I do understand your frustration as you have been on this path for a while and certain experiences have happened seemingly indicating a specific goal. The problem with these "special" experiences is that they are mostly not a help at all, they are rather counterproductive as they seem to provide a certain flavour of what true realisation will be like and they thus keep you chasing after some special state... the issue is that all states are just an interpretation of what lies beneath, of the stateless, attribute-less "reality" that really doesn't require special experiences to be there. It simply is, full stop. Every statement that defines it, everything that condemns or glorifies it, is already an interpretation. It is not it anymore, it is an idea, an interpretation.
So try not to put too much weight on any of these past experiences, you cant relive them and thus one shouldn't chase them. Take a certain teaching from them and then forget them. They are really not worth anything, all they can do is keep you chasing - its just another way of keeping selfing going... who else would prefer a certain experience over this one, that is here right now?

I would like to continue looking by examining the "emotional aspect" of the "self". I don't care about discomfort/dealing with physical sensations. I've been through enough discomfort in life, so I can get through more. Especially the type of discomfort that's going to reveal whatever is being overlooked on the inquiry to deconstructing the self/selfing habits.

Ok, great, then lets pick up the rope where we dropped it a few days ago...
You have found this statement that when intoned leads to a range of uncomfortable sensations. When being in this situation in real life these physical sensations arise very fast and almost immediately a reaction happens. The reaction arises due to anger, aversion or annoyance... The anger triggers a reaction. The reaction itself can be just a few negative thoughts or it can be the utterance of certain statements or even some physical reactions like walking out of the room etc... Agree so far?

Now that we can look at this in lab-like conditions I would like you, for now, to look only at these physical sensations.
There might be certain reactive thought patterns arising as well, but simply see them happening and then go back to the sensations. Please describe these sensations in some detail. Where do they arise. How does it feel... etc... Spend some time with them and try to become a bit more familiar with them.

Alex

[MoonChild625]

Ok, great, then lets pick up the rope where we dropped it a few days ago...
You have found this statement that when intoned leads to a range of uncomfortable sensations. When being in this situation in real life these physical sensations arise very fast and almost immediately a reaction happens. The reaction arises due to anger, aversion or annoyance... The anger triggers a reaction. The reaction itself can be just a few negative thoughts or it can be the utterance of certain statements or even some physical reactions like walking out of the room etc... Agree so far?

Now that we can look at this in lab-like conditions I would like you, for now, to look only at these physical sensations.
There might be certain reactive thought patterns arising as well, but simply see them happening and then go back to the sensations. Please describe these sensations in some detail. Where do they arise. How does it feel... etc... Spend some time with them and try to become a bit more familiar with them.

Alex

Hi Alex,

Yes, I agree with how certain statements/thoughts give rise to uncomfortable physical sensations, which can then cause further negative reactions.

Today, I had to go to work, and since I hate my job, I had lots of thoughts around resentment, frustration, & anger, ie, "I f*cking hate being here Mon-Fri, and now this! Having to be here on a Saturday sucks!!!"

Dropping the thoughts & labels left me with tension in the neck, shoulders & abdomen, heat in the chest, tightness in the throat, and a very intense feeling of restlessness. Have you ever seen a wild animal, like a lion or tiger in a small cage, the way the just pace back & forth from one end to the other? Well, that's how the energy felt in my body--very explosive. So, even in the absence of thoughts/labels, there was tightness, heat, & agitated/restless energy, and feelings of wanting to run away, just head for the exit & never look back.

Same thing yesterday, only other coworkers were present, that weren't there today. In that case, other thoughts arose like: "Why don't they just shut the f*ck up already? Who wants to hear their bullsh*t all day long?!" Lots of tightness in the neck, shoulders, lower back & abdomen was felt, along with an elevated pulse and heat in the chest.

On both days, the mind jumped to wanting to blame the situation/people for the feelings, but, there's an understanding that I am triggered in ways that have to do with years of past conditioning.

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi,

You are doing very well, considering that there is a lot of energy trapped in these sensations.

The next time you are in this situation - or when you practice this in lab-like conditions - then again start with being aware of these physical sensations, but after a few minutes just leave them and look for the trigger that makes you react. Look for the "resentment, frustration & anger" that leads to negative reactivity (to these negative thought patterns).

Are the physical sensations themselves responsible for this reactivity? If you find that they are not in any way responsible then there should be something else that fuses these sensations with reactive thought patterns into the emotion itself.
Try to find this "resentment, frustration & anger" and try to find out how/if it triggers the reactivity that you are describing...

Alex

[MoonChild625]

The next time you are in this situation - or when you practice this in lab-like conditions - then again start with being aware of these physical sensations, but after a few minutes just leave them and look for the trigger that makes you react. Look for the "resentment, frustration & anger" that leads to negative reactivity (to these negative thought patterns).

Are the physical sensations themselves responsible for this reactivity? If you find that they are not in any way responsible then there should be something else that fuses these sensations with reactive thought patterns into the emotion itself.
Try to find this "resentment, frustration & anger" and try to find out how/if it triggers the reactivity that you are describing...

Alex

Hi Alex,

I'm in this situation today, and the whole week, 5 days a week reactivity arises at my job, because, after almost 17 years of the same sh*t, I'm really hating it. And, the hating it is certainly weighing "me" down.

The trigger is waking up each day with the thoughts: ugh, here we go again, time to go to work. I really hate going there & I need to make a change. It's no longer a job I feel good about. All they care about are numbers & sales...etc.

So, my immediate thoughts might go to one of these themes or something similar. It arises Mon-Fri, & associating those days
with doing something I hate and being someplace I no longer want to be. It's trains of thoughts, upon thoughts, which trigger unpleasant feelings.

The resentment, frustration & anger are implied by the negative thoughts, but are not contained within them. It's the quick fusion of thought followed by unpleasant sensations in the chest & stomach. Separated, neither of them contain resentment or frustration, as such, but it sure seems like those are implied by the hateful thought structures.

It seems like thoughts are really the heart of the problem. Even thoughts like: I really feel sh*tty! Why can't I just stop suffering? Even questions like those don't help, I just feel worse.

That's what I have for now.

Thanks again,

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi,

I am sorry to hear about your situation.

The resentment, frustration & anger are implied by the negative thoughts, but are not contained within them. It's the quick fusion of thought followed by unpleasant sensations in the chest & stomach. Separated, neither of them contain resentment or frustration, as such, but it sure seems like those are implied by the hateful thought structures.

Yes, well seen! Resentment or frustration are not contained in sensations or in thoughts. They seem to be a combination of both, and are then labelled as such, but can this combination really be found? No! As you said, this is only a belief.

I do understand though that the chains of thought alone are already quite intense even without physical sensations seemingly making them even more urgent... so what can be done?
While the situation at work is as it is and seemingly wont change in a hurry, there is something that you can do. Things are only as bad (or good) as we allow them to be... which is again directly connected to the thoughts we entertain about them.
The problem is that you cant just decide to think only happy thoughts and be done with it - would be nice but it wont work... What can be done is conscious looking at these thoughts and simply seeing them for what they are - just a story about a me having all these problems. When they arise again, maybe tomorrow morning, then simply look at them but don't buy into them. Dont follow them but also don't push them away. Simply don't feed them any kind of energy. Thought is a tremendous energy consumer and when thoughts are constantly churning then not much is left to keep other natural processes going smoothly - the result is you will feel bad, also physically. Try to see how you are torturing yourself by following these thoughts (or by fighting them) and try to find a little gap, a little distance between the thought and the observing of them. Take your stand as the witness, not the thinker or the sufferer.
So, when these thoughts start up again, try to see how that happens, be very alert, and observe how the story gets more and more energetic - now: refuse adding more energy! A plant that is not watered will die - the same happens to thought!

This will obviously not make your job better, so don't expect miracles, but it will make "you" better and this will radiate. It will also give you energy to do what is necessary - either making the best out of the current job or finding a new one...
Most important: Don't give your energy away to thought story! And don't let thoughts be the master - they are just guests.

Alex

[MoonChild625]

While the situation at work is as it is and seemingly wont change in a hurry, there is something that you can do. Things are only as bad (or good) as we allow them to be... which is again directly connected to the thoughts we entertain about them.
The problem is that you cant just decide to think only happy thoughts and be done with it - would be nice but it wont work... What can be done is conscious looking at these thoughts and simply seeing them for what they are - just a story about a me having all these problems. When they arise again, maybe tomorrow morning, then simply look at them but don't buy into them. Dont follow them but also don't push them away. Simply don't feed them any kind of energy.

Hi Alex,

"Things are only as bad (or good) as we allow them to be... which is again directly connected to the thoughts we entertain about them." This reminds me of something a dhamma teacher spoke about where he suggested looking at how much one participates in making one's situation better/worse. He also referred to the negativity bias we all seem to have toward situations--it's easier, automatic, and survival based to notice what might be harmful to us for self-preservation.

The problem with this is that we aren't under constant threat like when we lived as more primitive hunter-gatherers. We behave as though we are when we believe there is a 'self' to protect. So, even at work, we might find ourselves scanning the environment for anything that might threaten our job security/relationship with the boss, etc.

To be aware of the environment is one thing, since awareness does that for us, but indulging in stories about what did/could/should happen is, in itself, damaging as it puts one on high alert & just weighs the mind down in misery.

Today, I did try looking on the better side of things, & really set out to notice the truly decent aspects of my job situation. It wasn't fantasy or just creating new-age affirmations about the job, but just really being honest about the good things that do exist in the situation. This really did lift the mind out of heaviness & negativity. For the most part, with the exception of a few moments, I had a decent day.

You are right about not giving negativity energy. It's just like putting gasoline on a fire--it gets out of control quickly, and the mind likes to feed it/participate in that kind of thinking to build a self as "victim". But, just as one can build a "self" as victim, one can also build a 'self' that's contented/happy/better than yesterday! If it's not stopped, the thought process can construct self after self...

Ok, more looking at the stories, what "i" get out of creating them & dropping them to notice feeling in the body.

Take care & Thanks,

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi,

I am glad that you had a better day at work.

You are right about not giving negativity energy. It's just like putting gasoline on a fire--it gets out of control quickly, and the mind likes to feed it/participate in that kind of thinking to build a self as "victim". But, just as one can build a "self" as victim, one can also build a 'self' that's contented/happy/better than yesterday! If it's not stopped, the thought process can construct self after self...

Yes, you are right that it ultimately doesn't help to construct a better self, but it makes it easier to see the complete emptiness of this concept. Its a bit like being on the ocean and the waves are huge and rough, you will only see the waves, but when the waves are small and gentle you will see the ocean (of course you always see the ocean no matter what the surface is doing, but I guess you understand what I mean).

Besides being aware of these thought stories it is also a great practice to always leave a certain amount of attention in the body. Try to be aware of how the body reacts to certain statements, stories and happenings. It is like a very sensitive radar screen indicating a lead-up to reactivity which can be very helpful.
When certain sensations start up, simply look at the thought content that is present. What does it state about "you", about someone having to make a decision or behave in a certain way... Is this conflicting thought-structure necessary at all or can there be a natural response that does not lead to a contraction in the physical organism?

Alex

[MoonChild625]

Hi Alex,

Besides being aware of these thought stories it is also a great practice to always leave a certain amount of attention in the body. Try to be aware of how the body reacts to certain statements, stories and happenings. It is like a very sensitive radar screen indicating a lead-up to reactivity which can be very helpful.
When certain sensations start up, simply look at the thought content that is present. What does it state about "you", about someone having to make a decision or behave in a certain way... Is this conflicting thought-structure necessary at all or can there be a natural response that does not lead to a contraction in the physical organism?

Alex

Yes, I can see how the body reacts, even before thoughts arise, to what's happening/being said by others, and how it tightens up when I'm engaged in telling/believing my own stories about things.

Many times I notice that I might be weaving a story, hearing it 'inside' the head, totally oblivious to the fact that my body is hard as a rock. Then, only when attention is removed from the story, I'll be aware of the physical contractions. Once attention is placed on the contractions & they are observed without commentary, they slowly soften & dissolve. It seems as though bare awareness does the trick without 'me' trying to fix things.

Most of the time, the thoughts don't say anything about 'me', they are just habitual, programmed responses dependent on whatever situation arises, and they don't really mean that 'I' have to do anything. The thought-structures are totally unnecessary, because they only fuel suffering & most of the time they are an obstacle to skillful responses. When natural responses arise from what is truly needed in any moment, without thoughts, they flow freely & are unforced, authentic.

Lots more observing to do, and many habits to be dropped! I'm grateful for your assistance, as always.

Take Care,

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi

Yes, beautiful! You are getting very good at this!

Once attention is placed on the contractions & they are observed without commentary, they slowly soften & dissolve. It seems as though bare awareness does the trick without 'me' trying to fix things.

Yes, very true. Simple observation, awareness, will dissolve whatever is not natural. As soon as there is the belief in a me entertained, a me being able to do anything for or against it, this whole natural process gets stuck. It can be hard to simply trust and let go, but you are on the best way to finding out that this is the only way...

Most of the time, the thoughts don't say anything about 'me', they are just habitual, programmed responses dependent on whatever situation arises, and they don't really mean that 'I' have to do anything.

Yes, that is perfectly right. These thoughts are not a problem at all, thought in general is not a problem, what would you do without the ability to think? It is only that thought gets problematic when the provided interpretation of experience is completely contradictory to "what is" - when thought states stuff like "I am in charge! I am responsible! If I cant do this then I will suffer!" etc... The recipe is again not to fight these thoughts, its the simple seeing of them and the direct knowledge, coming from inquiry into experience, that what is being stated is simply not the case. Its a belief that can be dropped.
So don't worry, the dropping will happen gradually as more and more light is being placed on these wrong interpretations. Let them dissolve and observe patiently.

Lots more observing to do, and many habits to be dropped!

Yes!

Alex

[MoonChild625]

Hi Alex,

I apologize for posting later than usual!

Simple observation, awareness, will dissolve whatever is not natural. As soon as there is the belief in a me entertained, a me being able to do anything for or against it, this whole natural process gets stuck. It can be hard to simply trust and let go, but you are on the best way to finding out that this is the only way...

Yes, observing/looking is key. At times, dissolving of tensions happens just by putting attention on the tightness itself. On Thursday, though, it seemed that wherever attention was placed, tightness just increased. That happened all day & I made no attempts to figure out why, or try to make explanations as to why it was happening.

These thoughts are not a problem at all, thought in general is not a problem, what would you do without the ability to think? It is only that thought gets problematic when the provided interpretation of experience is completely contradictory to "what is" - when thought states stuff like "I am in charge! I am responsible! If I cant do this then I will suffer!" etc... The recipe is again not to fight these thoughts, its the simple seeing of them and the direct knowledge, coming from inquiry into experience, that what is being stated is simply not the case. Its a belief that can be dropped.
So don't worry, the dropping will happen gradually as more and more light is being placed on these wrong interpretations. Let them dissolve and observe patiently.

True, thoughts don't have to be a problem, but they seem to arise when there is resistance to what is, so for me they indicate that I'm struggling with what is when I use them to make justifications or to blame someone/a situation for how I feel. And, the ability to think is an important human function, however, it seems to be abused in that it is relied on to explain reality via beliefs/opinions that only refer back to "me"/how "I" feel.

When using thoughts to reinforce the sense of self/ego & make declarations or engage in drama, this is also a completely useless waste of energy & a long-standing habit that needs to be seen & dropped when it occurs, like touching a hot stove or picking up a hot coal.

Ok, back to looking...

-MoonChild625

[Alexw]

Hi,

Sorry for not posting yesterday, was a busy weekend...

True, thoughts don't have to be a problem, but they seem to arise when there is resistance to what is, so for me they indicate that I'm struggling with what is when I use them to make justifications or to blame someone/a situation for how I feel

Yes, this resistance... where is it coming from? Try to find out what is the basis for resistance.

You have found out already that resistance is obviously not coming from any of the senses, it comes from thought judging a certain situation... agree?
This would mean that there really is no resistance before thought labels it as such and then keeps on going weaving stories around it. There are some physical sensations, fine, but do they qualify as resistance? No! The only thing that can (seemingly) resist is thought... Can thought really resist anything? Or can it only talk about something called "resistance"..?

So, it seems that the key to seeing through resistance is seeing through these thoughts... when these thoughts arise again, look for the one that is resisting. Sure, something is there, sensations, thoughts, its even ok to label it "resistance", but is there a separate entity that resists or judges? If there is only "resistance" but no one resisting... what are you resisting?

This might lead you to the question "What am I?" A separate entity that is able to resist? Or is there only pure and simple knowing of sensations and thoughts that state this and that...? Is is there a knower or even knowing that is separate from the known?

Alex