Wanted: direct experience

[moomon]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
Years of seeking, reading, and hoping for direct experience to reinforce what I intellectually believe to be true. I understand the concepts outlined in the book, Gate Crashers, and have heard them from other people like Adyashanti, but I can't say I have gone past intellectual understanding to direct experience, save one or two brief encounters. These past encounters, while powerful, have not brought the feeling of "I finally got it". I'm not sure if that feeling is supposed to come, but if so, I'm still pursuing "it" in a way that will be satisfying to the me that isn't.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I'm hoping for a guide who can help me break through obstacles, if there are any, to my direct experience of dharma. I would like to know on more than just an intellectual level that the no-self concept is more than just a concept. I know that there will be no bells and whistles, no angels will descend to congratulate me on this understanding, but I am hoping to discover that the "I" is capable of knowing definitively that it does not exist--that truth is something other than what is perceived via the human senses.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
As an adult: fifteen years of meditation, reading the modern and ancient philosophers, yoga, direct inquiry (usually guided), one or two direct experiences, and deep conversations with a very old, very wise cat. Before adulthood: an uncomfortable inability to "buy in to" the world as society presents itself and an inability to play along.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

[haleoherren]

Heya moomon

, but I am hoping to discover that the "I" is capable of knowing definitively that it does not exist--that truth is something other than what is perceived via the human senses.

Can you tell me what it is that is hoping to discover the truth?

but I can't say I have gone past intellectual understanding to direct experience, save one or two brief encounters. These past encounters, while powerful, have not brought the feeling of "I finally got it". I'm not sure if that feeling is supposed to come, but if so, I'm still pursuing "it" in a way that will be satisfying to the me that isn't.

Can you tell me more about these experiences?

It seems like you have done a lot of research and practice up until this point. For you to see clearly you will need to make sure that you drop everything that you have learned and studying and use your senses to examine what is happening right now. Can you do that?

[moomon]

Thanks for responding Haleoherron. I am incredibly grateful to be speaking with you.

To answer your question, "who wants to know truth", I would have to answer the thing that identifies a "me"; the mindset that is still living in the world of delusion. That me knows, and has always known, that there is something else and the seeking has always been going on in search what really is. I hope this is being articulated well enough for you to understand as words seem to be of little help in all this.

You asked about my experiences. The one that is freshest in my memory happened about two years ago. I have Lyme Disease, and during a particularly difficult day of suffering, I noticed a separation of my awareness from the body that was suffering. I became acutely aware of the feeling that what was happening to the body was not having any effect whatsoever on that which I had come to know as an "inner me" the experiencer, the sensor, that is always present and unchanging throughout life. It was one of those "aha!" moments. It was like watching a movie starring my body.I knew this was very relevant to what the I had been seeking, but of course, it didn't last beyond that day and I just don't know what do with the information now, you know? It was great, it was amazing, it's over.

Other relevant experiences happened quite often between the ages of 12 and 16. I had periods where I felt a kind of opening. Hard to explain. It was a sense of expansion; the world felt big and it felt like it was pouring right through the body, bringing sensations of great joy, like I was floating and everything was part of me. Better words I cannot find for these experiences.

Looking forward to hearing from you again. Thank you so much for being here for me.

Su

[haleoherren]

Su, feel free to call me Hale.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It is important during our dialog that you essentially forget about your past experiences and try not to replicate them. What I want you to do during this investigation is your your senses (seeing hearing thinking smelling tasting) to take a good look at what I ask.

To answer your question, "who wants to know truth", I would have to answer the thing that identifies a "me"; the mindset that is still living in the world of delusion. That me knows, and has always known, that there is something else and the seeking has always been going on in search what really is

Can you pinpoint that "me"? Can you tell me exactly where it is using the five senses?

While you are identifying the "me" can you tell me what it is that is doing the identifying of the "me"?

-Hale

[haleoherren]

Also if any of my questions seem confusing please ask for clarification!

[moomon]

[quote="haleoherren"]Su, feel free to call me Hale.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It is important during our dialog that you essentially forget about your past experiences and try not to replicate them. What I want you to do during this investigation is your your senses (seeing hearing thinking smelling tasting) to take a good look at what I ask.

Oddly enough, I don't seem to have any real desire to replicate the past experiences. They don't seem relevant; just a neat thing that happened in the past. I don't spend much time in the past; it's the only blessing of Lyme Disease--you can't remember the past so you don't waste a lot of time there.

Can you pinpoint that "me"? Can you tell me exactly where it is using the five senses?

No. It has always seems to be an issue. The "me" is a fabricated persona; a collection of conditioning schemas and the puppet displayed for the benefit of society. It's not real, I know that on a deeper level than ever before.In fear the "me" really comes up, and I have to remind myself that there is no "me". That's when a real struggle occurs--when the intellectual understanding argues with what is.It happened yesterday, while I was driving a long distance in a bad rainstorm. I thought, "what if I have an accident?" I caught the thought pattern and tried to reason with "myself", but noticed a big ol' wall. If there is no me, and I understand that, why do I still become afraid? I felt desperate, like suddenly nothing made sense anymore and I wasn't sure what to do with the emotions which come up no matter what I do but logically seem irrelevant. I'm just not there yet....and I'm babbling, sorry!

While you are identifying the "me" can you tell me what it is that is doing the identifying of the "me"?

Funny, at first it feels like it's the me that takes a whirl at identifying itself. Then I try to differentiate the witness from the me and try to see who is doing the identifying. I think they are both the same right now, and that I've just made what I call "the witness" into another concept--which means it's still the me doing the identifying. Now I'm freaking out. What if I don't know the difference???

When I'm not having this kind of confusion, I just identify the thing that identifies "me" as a presence outside of senses. I have to pause to "feel" it; to remember it's there. It feels like something outside of the senses, outside of thought somehow, but as of now I'm thinking maybe it's just something I created. Anyway, it's always there and always has been.I've even used that "knowing" of "it" at times, to overcome things like stage fright or despair, which has actually strengthened my awareness of it.

Do other people do that, or is this just more delusion?

Su

[haleoherren]

Thanks! I gave you a lot of questions. Feel free to answer them collectively or individually. Take your time!

No. It has always seems to be an issue. The "me" is a fabricated persona; a collection of conditioning schemas and the puppet displayed for the benefit of society. It's not real, I know that on a deeper level than ever before.In fear the "me" really comes up, and I have to remind myself that there is no "me". That's when a real struggle occurs--when the intellectual understanding argues with what is.It happened yesterday, while I was driving a long distance in a bad rainstorm. I thought, "what if I have an accident?" I caught the thought pattern and tried to reason with "myself", but noticed a big ol' wall. If there is no me, and I understand that, why do I still become afraid? I felt desperate, like suddenly nothing made sense anymore and I wasn't sure what to do with the emotions which come up no matter what I do but logically seem irrelevant. I'm just not there yet....and I'm babbling, sorry!

Your answers are great! I appreciate the depth with which you respond.

The "me" is a fabricated persona; a collection of conditioning schemas and the puppet displayed for the benefit of society. It's not real, I know that on a deeper level than ever before.In fear the "me" really comes up, and I have to remind myself that there is no "me". That's when a real struggle occurs--when the intellectual understanding argues with what is.It happened yesterday, while I was driving a long distance in a bad rainstorm. I thought, "what if I have an accident?"

This all seems like thought. Is that true? Does the thought "there is a me" have any bearing on whether or not there is actually a me in your immediate experience?

caught the thought pattern and tried to reason with "myself", but noticed a big ol' wall.

What has control over the reasoning? What is doing the reasoning? What is reasoning with what?

Funny, at first it feels like it's the me that takes a whirl at identifying itself. Then I try to differentiate the witness from the me and try to see who is doing the identifying. I think they are both the same right now, and that I've just made what I call "the witness" into another concept--which means it's still the me doing the identifying. Now I'm freaking out. What if I don't know the difference???

This is something that I am very familiar with! Take a stab at these questions to figure out what the witness is.
Examine what you call to be the witness. What is it precisely that is doing the witnessing and where does it exist? Check out what is happening right now and and pay close attention to what you ascribe to be the witness.

When I'm not having this kind of confusion, I just identify the thing that identifies "me" as a presence outside of senses. I have to pause to "feel" it; to remember it's there. It feels like something outside of the senses, outside of thought somehow, but as of now I'm thinking maybe it's just something I created.

Can you find anything other than the five senses and thinking (what I will call experience)? Can you ever find something other than experience? What would it look like and how would it appear?

Do other people do that, or is this just more delusion?

Honestly this was a place that I spend a lot of time investing. What helped me most was using my senses to check what is real and what wasn't. I don't want to give you any answers but take a good look at what you call presence. Does it appear as anything other than the five senses or thinking? Could it ever?

[moomon]

Hale,

You've given me a lot to think about, and I want to give all your questions the time they deserve before I answer. It's getting late, so I'm going to start fresh tomorrow. I'll be alone too, so I'll have fewer interruptions.

This is so exciting!

Thank you,

Su

[haleoherren]

Have a good night! Check back in whenever you're ready!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[moomon]

This all seems like thought. Is that true?

>>Yes, it absolutely is just thought; intellectualism. Philosophical baloney.
Does the thought "there is a me" have any bearing on whether or not there is actually a me in your immediate experience?

>>I wrote two pages of rambling crap in response to this question, then this sentence came out of no where, succinctly answering your question:

Direct experience does not need thought. It just is. Thought does not need direct experience; it’s just a function of mind; fiction.

What has control over the reasoning? What is doing the reasoning? What is reasoning with what?

>>The mind has control over reason. It is what reasons, and it reasons, or argues, with what “is”, or with itself.
Examine what you call to be the witness. What is it precisely that is doing the witnessing and where does it exist? Check out what is happening right now and and pay close attention to what you ascribe to be the witness.
>>I don’t know how to answer that, exactly, so I will speak from direct experience only. I hope this makes sense; I know it will sound crazy! The witness seems like it is outside of all thought, all emotion and all sensation. I don’t know where it exists, but I can always sense it when I look. I cannot identify it as form. It is always there, and always has been. It’s like a dark space, just outside the realm of sense and thought. I believe, on one occasion, I abandoned the “self” completely and functioned only though “it”. I worry that it was just a case of suppression in a time of great grief, but nonetheless, when I “returned” to functioning through “self”, there was no longer any pain. It just felt like a fluid transition.

Can you find anything other than the five senses and thinking (what I will call experience)? Can you ever find something other than experience? What would it look like and how would it appear?

>>No, I don’t believe so. I mean, everything we experience happens via cerebral interpretation. Without the mind one cannot answer the question. Even if I “found” something, it would have to be sensed and then and interpreted as “something found” by mind. There would have to be some other means of experiencing other than the senses and mind in order to experience in another way. I can’t say how something other than experience would look without using the aforementioned senses! Why do I feel like I just failed this question? (lol)

Honestly this was a place that I spend a lot of time investing. What helped me most was using my senses to check what is real and what wasn't. I don't want to give you any answers but take a good look at what you call presence. Does it appear as anything other than the five senses or thinking? Could it ever?

>>>Another tough one. For me, presence doesn’t appear as anything; it has no form so I don’t need any senses to know it’s there, other than a feeling. Does that count? I do have to think about it to “see” if I can feel it, or be aware of it. Is awareness a sense? Confusing. I can say without question that it does not appear as any "thing". I don’t know what it is, really, so I can’t say whether or not it could ever appear as anything other than a sensory experience. If it could, I would not know it, because I can only be aware through the mind and senses. If it is a construct of the mind, like “me”, then it can never be anything but a construct; just another creation of mind. Damn.

The waters are certainly getting muddy! I hope you can help me sort through all this.

Su

[haleoherren]

Su,

The mind has control over reason. It is what reasons, and it reasons, or argues, with what “is”, or with itself.

Does the thought "Mind controls thought" dictate thoughts? Could any thought dictate or create thoughts?

The witness seems like it is outside of all thought, all emotion and all sensation. I don’t know where it exists, but I can always sense it when I look. I cannot identify it as form. It is always there, and always has been.

It’s like a dark space, just outside the realm of sense and thought.

Look very closely at this place. Is it a thought plus a feeling that you are calling the witness? A belief that the witness is some sort of special sensation plus a special thought that gives rise to it? Check it out very carefully using your investigative tools (senses plus thought)


What if I proposed to you that "presence" or "witness" "awareness" is the same thing as what is experienced? Where then would the witness or presence be? Can you separate awareness or the knowing of a sense perception from the sense perception? Look around you and take a look at thinking and seeing and hearing. Decide if awareness and the sense perception or though are two things or if they are both the same thing.

Hale

[moomon]

[/quote]

Su,

The mind has control over reason. It is what reasons, and it reasons, or argues, with what “is”, or with itself.

Does the thought "Mind controls thought" dictate thoughts? Could any thought dictate or create thoughts?

No. Thought cannot think, however, thoughts seem to build on other thoughts. If I "think" there's a spider on my arm, I will then undoubtably "think" of looking at my arm to confirm the initial thought. In that respect I would have to argue that one thought was created by another.

The witness seems like it is outside of all thought, all emotion and all sensation. I don’t know where it exists, but I can always sense it when I look. I cannot identify it as form. It is always there, and always has been.

It’s like a dark space, just outside the realm of sense and thought.

Look very closely at this place. Is it a thought plus a feeling that you are calling the witness? A belief that the witness is some sort of special sensation plus a special thought that gives rise to it? Check it out very carefully using your investigative tools (senses plus thought)

This is the first time I've tried to attach labels to it. I don't considerate it a "thought", just an awareness. That isn't the same as thought right? There is no sensation, no sensual relation at all. I can't attach any senses to it. There is just the understanding (a thought?) that there does seem to be something there-some"thing" that isn't a "thing". I feel like I'm going in circles and getting no where....

Hi Hale,

What if I proposed to you that "presence" or "witness" "awareness" is the same thing as what is experienced?

Umm, that would confuse the heck out of "me"! Are you suggesting that I am separating "me" from this "awareness" I've described to you when they are the same "thing"?

Where then would the witness or presence be? Can you separate awareness or the knowing of a sense perception from the sense perception? Look around you and take a look at thinking and seeing and hearing. Decide if awareness and the sense perception or though are two things or if they are both the same thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you could maybe phrase it differently, I am eager to continue this conversation.

[moomon]

Haven't heard from you since asking you to rephrase your last question. Did I lose you?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Su, vince here. i will continue with you.
Let's start with you having a short rave about what emotions that you have experienced in the past couple of hours.

vince

[moomon]

Thank you for stepping up, Vince. I hope I didn't do something wrong in regard to Hale. We were on a role, not sure what happened.

As for the rave about what I've been feeling the last couple of hours--not much there! I had a lovely dinner with my husband; we talked about the coming holidays. Happiness and peace reigned the past couple of hours. Mind considered the current status in regard to the gate on the way home earlier. I feel like I'm standing a few feet away from it, and there's great comfort in that belief/thought.

Again,

So happy you are here to help!

Moomon